Author Topic: Fire Development in Cold Stores  (Read 15770 times)

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Fire Development in Cold Stores
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2016, 08:16:35 AM »
given its toxic potential

Sorry to be pedantic CO2 is not toxic it's an asphyxiate and plays havoc with your medulla oblongata and bring back the proto sets.  ;)
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline Fishy

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Re: Fire Development in Cold Stores
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2016, 08:44:46 AM »
given its toxic potential

Sorry to be pedantic CO2 is not toxic it's an asphyxiate and plays havoc with your medulla oblongata and bring back the proto sets.  ;)

Forgive me, but I do beg to differ re: toxicity...

http://www.hse.gov.uk/carboncapture/assets/docs/major-hazard-potential-carbon-dioxide.pdf

http://www.nist.gov/el/fire_research/upload/R0000286.pdf

I would never enter a large area with a CO2 extinguishing system in it - locked off or not!

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Fire Development in Cold Stores
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2016, 09:18:49 AM »
Fishy I am not saying it is not a major hazard I am saying it is not Toxic and I cannot find anything in those article that says different.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline Mike Buckley

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Re: Fire Development in Cold Stores
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2016, 09:25:43 AM »
Sorry Tom, after haveing a look at the articles I agree with Fishy, it is toxic. In high concentrations it will suffocate you but in lower concentrations it will mess with your blood chemistry and kill you.
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Offline wee brian

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Re: Fire Development in Cold Stores
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2016, 09:30:25 AM »
yup CO2 is toxic, but you have to try pretty hard to get poisoned by it.

CO of course will kill you in a blink.

Offline K Lard

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Re: Fire Development in Cold Stores
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2016, 09:36:32 AM »
Need to get those toxic labels on CO2 extinguishers!

Offline kurnal

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Re: Fire Development in Cold Stores
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2016, 09:38:30 AM »
To me its down to lesser evils. Main choices are:
Ammonia - if things go wrong theres a possible big bang and toxicity to contend with, toxicity and explosion alarms required
LPG - If things go wrong theres an inevitable very big bang and possible gas clouds before a big bang, if its still contained theres a risk of bleve Major controls and explosive alarms needed
CO2 serious risk of asphyxiation no risk of fire or explosion, asphyxiation alarms needed.

Offline Fishy

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Re: Fire Development in Cold Stores
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2016, 10:32:25 AM »
Sorry Tom, after haveing a look at the articles I agree with Fishy, it is toxic. In high concentrations it will suffocate you but in lower concentrations it will mess with your blood chemistry and kill you.

Extract from HSE documentation:

"CO2 has been shown to exhibit a level of toxicity related to the concentration and time of exposure...

...CO2 is commonly thought of as posing a threat to life through asphyxiation when it displaces the oxygen in air down to dangerously low levels. For CO2 to reduce the oxygen concentration in air down to a level that is immediately dangerous to life, the CO2 concentration would need to be in the order of 50% v/v. Evidence shows, however, that CO2 does create an immediate threat to life at a concentration of only 15% in air due to the toxicological impact it has on the body when inhaled at this concentration".

I do stand by my comments about CO2 at the concentrations used for fixed fire extinguishing systems - which are typically far in excess of those mentioned as being hazardous in the above documents (your typical portable fire extinguishers are a different matter entirely) - my take from the literature is that a few breaths at anything above 25% will be enough for quite a good proportion of us to be rendered unconscious within seconds.  No asphyxiation alarm will help if it takes you a long time to get out of the location, unless you've got immediate access to emergency BA.  As I said, I would never enter one of these locations unless a) it was so small that I was absolutely sure that I'd be able to get out within seconds and b) someone competent assured me that there had been no release of CO2 in that location.  That's an entirely personal choice - not suggesting that others ought to have the same opinion!

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Fire Development in Cold Stores
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2016, 12:29:32 PM »
I stand corrected and this should mean quite a few document needs amending as well as considering the colour coding of cylinders.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline colin todd

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Re: Fire Development in Cold Stores
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2016, 11:40:53 PM »
Tam, people used to be taught 100 years ago that it is not toxic, but it was always wrong; as I recall it attacks the CNS.  It is easy to prove just by common sense. If it was purely an asphyxiant, it would kill you at the same concentration as an inert gas, which is certainly not the case.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Dinnertime Dave

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Re: Fire Development in Cold Stores
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2016, 06:29:22 AM »
If the cylinder is red it will burn you, if it is yellow it will poison you. If it's both you need an a hazmat officer.

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Fire Development in Cold Stores
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2016, 03:46:22 PM »
Tam, people used to be taught 100 years ago that it is not toxic, but it was always wrong; as I recall it attacks the CNS.  It is easy to prove just by common sense. If it was purely an asphyxiant, it would kill you at the same concentration as an inert gas, which is certainly not the case.

Colin in my case it was about 60 years ago but I am pleased I tried to make a point and was decimated which made me get down to some research.
 
There is much conflicting information, out there, but now would treat CO2 with far more respect. At high levels, the initial symptoms up to unconsciousness, is very quick (at 30% 26/27 secs) and would agree with fishy, BA a necessity but I also fully agree with Kurnal, if I had to deal with a cold store incident then I would certainly prefer the refrigerant to be CO2.
 
He never mentioned the ammonia burns to the nether regions it was like Vinnie Jones grabbing you with superhuman strength.

As you said the CNS is involved, blood pH is tightly regulated by a system of buffers that continuously maintain it in a normal range of 7.35 to 7.45 (slightly alkaline). Blood pH drop below 7 can lead to a coma and even death due to severe acidosis. This causes depression of the central nervous system.

High blood pH (above 7.45) is called alkalosis. Severe alkalosis (when blood pH is more than eight) can also lead to death. Respiration and the renal organs are two of the buffers and if the lungs are not removing the CO2 from the blood, because of excess CO2 in the lungs, then the ph value will drop. (Brown Bread)

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/464950/Carbon_dioxide_IM_PHE_300915.pdf
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 04:09:55 PM by Tom Sutton »
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.