Evac chairs

[massive1969]

Hi

I recently went along with a colleague and shadowed a FSRA he was doing on a leisure centre. 

It had 2 floors, with a lift specifically designed for disabled visitors to travel up to the first floor which had a viewing area and cafe.  The lift automatically returned to ground floor in the event of a fire alarm actuation.

It had 2 protected staircases [well sort of...the FD's were knackered or as my colleague described it "a pile of s***"].  But the theory is that they have two protected staircases with refuge positions and communication equipment which allows staff at reception to communicate with anyone in the refuge point.

They used to have two evac chairs...but the local F&RS advised them not to use them as they are too dangerous.  They advised the client that they should simply move disabled occupants to the protected refuge position in the stairway, leave them there and tell the F&RS when they arrive where they are located and they will then go and rescue them.

Is that correct?? 

[PS - I'm new to this job so I'm not criticising the F&RS if thats what they said - I just want to understand if that's the right thing to advise clients as and when I carry out FSRA myself].

[kurnal]

.

They used to have two evac chairs...but the local F&RS advised them not to use them as they are too dangerous.  They advised the client that they should simply move disabled occupants to the protected refuge position in the stairway, leave them there and tell the F&RS when they arrive where they are located and they will then go and rescue them.

Is that correct??  

Many local fire services casually offer this role, it's usually the people on the trucks who don't have any idea on what the legal position is under the Fire Safety Order. Legally and technically it's wrong but if they are offering to do it.....bet they won't bother writing it into their operational plan or confirming it in writing........bet they will forget about their offer before they are halfway back to the station leaving the RP and staff up the creek without a paddle. Then when a fire safety officer goes to carry out an audit the proverbial will hit the fan.

[massive1969]

Thanks Kurnal. 

So best advice from a FSRA point of view would be to reinstate the evac chairs, train people to use them just in case F&RS cannot reach person?

[kurnal]

What does the Law say with regard to responsibility for the safety of Relevant Persons , the implementation of emergency procedures and the training of staff?

[massive1969]

Yep, I see!

As a newbie, I sometimes think that whatever the local F&RS says, it must be the law!

[John Webb]

There is a problem in using Evac chairs rather than a protected lift for evacuating those on upper floors who use wheelchairs - once outside in an Evac chair, how do they move about, return home or whatever when their own chair is still in the building? It's not an easy one!

[massive1969]

You can see why newbies like me get confused!!

[wee brian]

Yep, I see!

As a newbie, I sometimes think that whatever the local F&RS says, it must be the law!

Please don't ever assume this. When I was a Building Inspector (with all the necessary qualifications), I occasionally got things wrong. This was made worse by people (who knew better) doing whatever I said. A good enforcement officer should be able to justify anything they have said and be open to challenge.

Many (not all) F&RS officers will have had less training than you (although they may have "tasted smoke" and driven big red lorries). Challenge what they say, but do it politely.

[massive1969]

Hello wee brian,

Okay, thank you for the heads up...I must admit from the little experience I have "out on site" there's a good clash of opinions between building regs and FSRA...which makes it a lot harder for people like me to learn but all the more interesting!

From the legal [RRO] perspective, it makes it clear that clients need to consider disabled occupants, provide suitable equipment and train staff to use the equipment if needed...

The battle I've seen is that the FSRA shows this, and then the local F&RS tell them not to...which leaves the FRA with egg on his face.

But, I can also see the F&RS point of view which John explained above...but most buildings i've been to don't have protected lifts.  They have protected staircases which can be used as refuge points, but typically no evac equipment [or if they have equipment, nobody on site who knows how to use it!]

My gut feeling is to tell them to do it as per RRO and highlight the relevant chapters, but offer the F&RS service to challenge and put in writing that they will rescue disabled occupants trapped in refuge positions...

[kurnal]

The fire service should be viewed as a safety net, it's the responsibility of the RP to make adequate provision and it should work, people should be at a place of safety before the fire service arrive - but if for unforeseen circumstances it goes wrong that's when the fire service come into their own in picking up the pieces and hopefully asking questions later.

[massive1969]

Thanks Kurnal

[Davo]

John

The relevant bit in your post is 'once they are outside', that's the whole point here.

However, Evac chairs require plenty of practice in their use, also very difficult to use with some stairs non compliant with BS dimensions (I forget the number)


dave

ps meady how long would it take FRS to attend, this needs to be considered also

[nearlythere]

I would think the Evac chair manufacturers/retailers legal advisors might like to have a word with those who said the chairs are dangerous. Also remember that any evacuation strategy must not be reliant in the FS. Evacuation is not the responsibility of the FS particularly more so with the Service being cut to pieces.

[massive1969]

Thanks Davo and Nearlythere.

[Fishy]

Evac chairs are an acknowledged solution to the thorny issue of vertical means of escape for "persons of restricted mobility" (PRMs).  In many buildings they're the only practicable solution.  

Issues:

- they're only any good going downstairs (not much use for basements - though there are powered stair climbers that can be used);

- they need to be located in a refuge (see BS 9999 for guidance on this - Section 46 and Annex G);

- people need to be trained in their use, & there's very often reluctance to do this 'live' because of the manual handling risks.  They therefore end up sitting at their desks watching a video of someone else doing it without having to try it themselves until they have to do it for real - cue discussion regarding whether this 'computer-based-training is sufficient for such a manual task...;

- if the person needing assistance has to be transferred from their wheelchair to the evac chair, then this might require several fit, trained personnel (depending upon the wheelchair user's capabilities).  If you know the person's capabilities beforehand, this can be planned for (assuming you have sufficient numbers of fit, trained staff who will be available...) - far more of a problem in public buildings where you might have to cater for the 'worst case' (e.g. a couple of 200kg+ individuals in powered chairs - rather them than me...)

... all of which means that we try & push clients towards specifying evacuation lifts when designing fully-accessible buildings! Don't necessarily have that luxury in existing buildings though - but you can sometimes make a case that lifts not necessarily designed for evacuation can be used, if they satisfy certain critical requirements.