New fire safety guide for Scotland

[colin todd]

Scottish Government have made a draft of new guidance on fire precautions for all non-residential premises in support of the Fire(Scotland) Act (the equivalent of the Fire Safety Order in Scotland).  It consolidates all the non residential premises sector- specific guides into one simplified guide.
Comments are required by early March.  The draft can be downloaded at
https://consult.scotland.gov.uk/fire-and-rescue/fire-safety-guidance-for-existing-non-residential

[lyledunn]

I am inclined to say what a monumental waste of the tax payers dollar! Is it not time we had a common UK approach? Why is it that we can't have one single reference document, say 9999. We have that approach in my field of electrical installation work with bolt on special locations, mostly agreed in the European standards organisation, CENELEC.

[wee brian]

That's why you get the French using 3 pin plugs and ring mains aint it.

The scots have had there own legal system, building regs etc etc since the union was formed. if anything we're getting more devolution now that the welsh have their own AD B etc etc.

As for having a single guide on the Fire Scotland Act - sounds like a good idea. We should do the same with the FSO risk assessment guides.

[Owain]

All the Poileas* cars are getting new bilingual logos so perhaps all the Fire Exit signs are going to have to be bilingual as well.

* That's Gaelic; the Scots for police is of course Polis.

[colin todd]

It was on behalf of the taxpayer that the Regulatory Review Group recommended revision and simplification of guidance. Scottish Government have responded accordingly.  I cannot see why that is a waste of money as the civil servants are sitting there anyway, so there is no cost involved.

The idea that BS 9999 (which is not acknowledged under Scottish (or English) building regulations) should be used as guidance in support of fire safety legislation is the stuff that nightmares are made of.

[lyledunn]

That's why you get the French using 3 pin plugs and ring mains aint it.

Indeed Wee Brian, but at least it is 3 pin for Scotland, England, Wales, NI and the kingdom of Cornwall! I am merely pointing out just how disjointed fire safety guidance is in the UK.
Colin, I am at a loss to understand how BS9999 is the stuff of nightmares. It is an acceptable way of complying with building regs here in NI and I have used it as a basis for regulatory compliance in an number of our projects in England.
You also have an interesting perspective on the use of civil service staff in Scotland. No cost to the tax payer as they are there any way? So the buggers just sit there twiddling there thumbs with nothing to do, might as well shove a shed load of fire safety stuff their way and get them to tidy up the mess they made in the first place.
Please note that there is no intention on my part to be acerbic. I am merely reflecting frustration at the fractured nature of fire safety requirements across the UK. Any common approach is surely to be of benefit. I haven't done any projects in Scotland, but if one came up, I really wouldn't relish having to wade through more region-specific treacle.

[colin todd]

The civil servants in Scotland never made a mess in the first place-you are thinking of the civil servants in England unably assisted by flotsam and jetsam press ganged into the panic mode under which the guides were produced without any proper public consultation.  Then there was wonder at the totally stupid 2.5 minute evacuation time for sub-compartments in care homes  and guides that were not fit for purpose for some of the occupancies they purported to address.  The NI couldnt be bothered to write their own guides, came to an agreement with Scotland to use the Scottish guides, then found out they were inconsistent with NI building regs, so copied the English guides.

[Fishy]

There's no doubt in my mind that having different national guidance for the various nations in the UK is a political decision with no safety-related basis and exposes UK PLC to unnecessary costs - buildings aren't that different in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland & fire certainly doesn't respect national borders. 

Whilst we might not automatically have 'better' regulations & 'better' guidance if both covered the whole of the UK, you would have consistency, increased competition and design costs would undoubtedly be reduced.  You'd also avoid paying multiple government employees to look at the same issues.  I personally wouldn't really care if the legislation & guidance were English-flavoured, Scottish-flavoured, Welsh or Irish so long as it was the same.

[wee brian]

Its a political thing.

Politicians are worried that people don't like them and that they think politicians are out of touch.
Politicians also think the devolution moves decision making closer to the people that are affected so less out of touch and more likeable.
A cynic might also think that devolution produces more jobs for politicians (it does).

So, as you say, its nothing to do with fire safety and its a bit annoying sometimes.

[Mike Buckley]

Don't forget it also means that the onus for understanding the work was shifted away from the Fire Service and into the private sector thus enabling savings to be made by reducing the fire service.

Safety, what has safety got to do with it?

[idlefire]

The civil servants in Scotland never made a mess in the first place-you are thinking of the civil servants in England unably assisted by flotsam and jetsam press ganged into the panic mode under which the guides were produced without any proper public consultation.  Then there was wonder at the totally stupid 2.5 minute evacuation time for sub-compartments in care homes  and guides that were not fit for purpose for some of the occupancies they purported to address.  The NI couldnt be bothered to write their own guides, came to an agreement with Scotland to use the Scottish guides, then found out they were inconsistent with NI building regs, so copied the English guides.

Sorry Colin, I have to stop you there.

If a fire safety guide doesn't show a white horse within an inner room, then its not worth the paper it's written on.   

[kurnal]

That's why you get the French using 3 pin plugs and ring mains aint it.

The scots have had there own legal system, building regs etc etc since the union was formed. if anything we're getting more devolution now that the welsh have their own AD B etc etc.

As for having a single guide on the Fire Scotland Act - sounds like a good idea. We should do the same with the FSO risk assessment guides.

Have any of you ever tried working in Germany? from my limited experience (I gave up in frustration) each district has its own fire safety standards, published only in German, available in hard copy or locked PDF only and impossible to understand. So most people throw hook line and sinker at the fire precautions in the hope that they will meet the guidance without understanding why. i don't think we do too bad in the uk compared to this.

[SeaBass]

I?ve come across this in Germany, Italy, and other countries. In France local interpretation of National guidance varies from region to region, particularly Paris. That?s why I drew up clear fire safety principles which where applied to all of the companies premises without setting any specific bench marks. It went over the top compared to some local/national guidance, but with the exception of Russia, I didn?t come across anywhere were local FS inspectors complained about us exceeding the Local minimum requirements.   

[wee brian]

And in the USA it can vary between individual towns!

[colin todd]

And in the DCLG it can vary between desks.