Grenfell Tower

[TFEM]

Sprinklers in new builds should be mandatory irrespective of cost. Retro fitting sprinklers in existing flats would be a nightmare from an installation point of view.

But is there any reason why retro fitting sprinklers into ALL stairwells and landings couldn't be done? I don't think cost should come in to it. Would this assist with the smoke problem that Mike refers to above?? If so, it would then ensure that egress is possible.

John

[Tom Sutton]

OK I know I've retired, But there is one question that puzzles me. It the external cladding was on fire, how come the lobbies and the escape staircase in the center of the building were smoke logged and impassible? Surely the stairs should have been a place of relative safety?

Check out http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/14/grenfell-tower-floorplan-shows-120-flats-packed-highrise/ if the plans are correct then it is esily to see how the route to the staircase would be impassable in a short time.(30 min) Also the liftshafts would be a concern as they have no fire resistance. I would accept it is suitable for stay put policy but this was not the case at Grenfell tower fire.

[Tadees]

OK I know I've retired, But there is one question that puzzles me. It the external cladding was on fire, how come the lobbies and the escape staircase in the center of the building were smoke logged and impassible? Surely the stairs should have been a place of relative safety?

Check out http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/14/grenfell-tower-floorplan-shows-120-flats-packed-highrise/ if the plans are correct then it is esily to see how the route to the staircase would be impassable in a short time.(30 min) Also the liftshafts would be a concern as they have no fire resistance. I would accept it is suitable for stay put policy but this was not the case at Grenfell tower fire.

Hi Tom, are you saying that because the lift opens in to the lobby serving the flats?

[Tom Sutton]

Yes because the lift shaft is not a protected shaft, consequently you have limited compartmentation between floors, and the only FD30s door is the front door of each flat, however it does meet ADB.

[jayjay]

You are assuming that the door to each flat is a FD30s  I have inspected many blocks of flats and the flat doors were not always fitted with smoke seals. There has been much discussion on this site as to the merits of upgrading with intumescent strips, cold smoke seals and self closers. My preference was always to advise that they are fitted.  Also the door from the lift lobby to the staircase  should be a FD30s door.

It does not appear that there is any windows into the staircase therefore if the structural protection was sound the two sets of compliant FR doors should reduce the amount of smoke getting into a staircase. However once people started to evacuate smoke would get into the staircase.

I do not wish to make any assumptions at this time as the exact details are not known yet, I did see at one time a photograph of the building showing a gas main that was installeed in the staircase as part of the refurbishment ? I wait to see if this is confirmed.

[Owain]

This does not just affect apartment blocks. From the BBC:

Premier Inn has told BBC Newsnight that cladding on its hotels in Maidenhead, Brentford and Tottenham did not appear to comply with government guidance for tall buildings - although it did appear to be a less flammable type than that used at Grenfell Tower. The hotel chain said an independent expert has assured them that the hotels were safe to stay open given their "robust" safety measures including fire detectors and smoke alarms in every room. The hotels do not operate a "stay put" policy and have multiple means of escape.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40366646

It's also not stated whether those three Premier Inn hotels have been used, but:

the council itself has offered some Grenfell residents temporary accommodation ? in a building that they describe as a ?carbon copy? of Grenfell Tower. Some survivors have been offered rooms at a local Premier Inn, which in itself sounds unobjectionable. But anyone with a little local knowledge knows that the high-rise hotel bears a strong resemblance to the building that burned down last week with huge loss of life.
https://skwawkbox.org/2017/06/18/grenfell-residents-offered-rooms-in-carbon-copy-hotel-with-cladding/

[Mike Buckley]

Sorry Tom,

ADB vol2 5.42 states:

Lift wells should be either:

a. contained within the enclosures of a protected staircase; or

b. enclosed throughout their height with fire - resisting construction if they are sited so as to prejudice the means of escape.

A lift well connecting different compartments should form a protected shaft (see Section

See also the Lifts Directive 95/16/EC.

I did come across this problem and a requirement to provide fire compartmentation round the entrance to a passenger lift and was told that the lift doors are normally 1/2 hour FR separating the shaft from the floor.

My original concern still stands.

[Tom Sutton]

That's fine Mike I stand corrected, but my concern still stands regarding smoke control as I believe fireman's lift doors are FD30 not FD30s so what the chances for standard lifts.

Check out http://highrisefirefighting.co.uk/lift.html

[nim]

This link still works

http://web.archive.org/web/20161114232416/http://www.harleyfacades.co.uk:80/page/grenfell-tower

[Tom W]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4657984/Grenfell-safety-consultant-urged-council-hide-failings.html

Don't tell anyone about the fire risks: Safety consultant hired to inspect Grenfell Tower urged council to hide failings - and he's an ex-firefighter

    Carl Stokes was paid ?250,000 to inspect Grenfell Tower for any risks of fire
    But former Oxfordshire Fire Service worker plotted with council to hide failings
    Fire safety expert Arnold Tarling said attitude of Stokes 'absolutely stinks'


?250k for one block?!

[David Rooney]

?250k for one block?!

Fire consultant Carl Stokes was paid ?244,318 over seven years as fire risk assessor for Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation (KCTMO), according to documents seen by Inside Housing.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-risk-assessor-carl-stokes-buried-fire-risk-report-kensington-and-chelsea-tenant-a7819386.html

[Owain]

?250k for one block?!

(a) "consultant"
(b) local authority client
(c) London prices

[stevew]

Confused.
Mr Stokes website implies that he is registered/connected in some way with the IFE.
He states 'IFE Assessor/Auditor (Fire Safety Order)'
What does this mean?

[Tom Sutton]

His telephone number would indicate he is located in the Witney area near Oxford, I can only find one who is located in that area on the IFE fire risk assessors register.

http://www.ife.org.uk/Fire-Risk-Assessors-Register

[nearlythere]

OK I know I've retired, But there is one question that puzzles me. It the external cladding was on fire, how come the lobbies and the escape staircase in the center of the building were smoke logged and impassible? Surely the stairs should have been a place of relative safety?

Puzzles me too Mike but I have a thought on why this would happen. We'll all have to wait until the official enquiry provides the answers.