'Mortice' concealed door closers

[Fire Monkey]

Hello,

May I ask your thoughts and considerations regarding concealed door closers - these are the ones that fit into he body of the door at the hinged edge and replace traditional top externally mounted door closers. They can be swing free or connected to the fire alarm (although I can't work how they are wired in)  They are not the old style Pu*k* ones with a chain but hydraulic and spring ones. I have seen documentation suggesting they meet an array of BS standards but I ask if these have only been testing in certain doors/sets. They may well not be suitable for every type of fire door commercial available. Also I have not seen any information on of they could/should be installed in existing doors.

Should I come across these in a FRA what questions should I be asking or advising my client on?

Are these units reliable?

Do I want them in the buildings I am responsible for?

Thanks,

Monkey

[nearlythere]

Hello,

May I ask your thoughts and considerations regarding concealed door closers - these are the ones that fit into he body of the door at the hinged edge and replace traditional top externally mounted door closers. They can be swing free or connected to the fire alarm (although I can't work how they are wired in)  They are not the old style Pu*k* ones with a chain but hydraulic and spring ones. I have seen documentation suggesting they meet an array of BS standards but I ask if these have only been testing in certain doors/sets. They may well not be suitable for every type of fire door commercial available. Also I have not seen any information on of they could/should be installed in existing doors.

Should I come across these in a FRA what questions should I be asking or advising my client on?

Are these units reliable?

Do I want them in the buildings I am responsible for?

Thanks,

Monkey

From memory FM there is the P&&&O which was a single chain on a spring which didn't comply. Then there is the P&&&omatic which is a double chain hydraulic. I believe these comply with EN 1154 but it should say on it. I still see the former quite a bit and they don't work. They may have at one time when new and permanently on slam mode. I don't accept them on fire doors.

[Fishy]

The older ones that only worked by slamming the door closed are almost worse than useless - they're commonly disconnected and they can wreck the door over time, if not properly adjusted.

Two issues:

• Do they close the door, unassisted, from any angle of opening, overcoming the resistance of the latch (if fitted) or any seals?
  

• might they compromise the fire resistance of the door?

The first is easily tested (assuming you can open the door), and for an existing installation (where as a fire risk assessor I'd propose that it's not for you to worry about CE marking etc) if it functions correctly then it should do its job in a fire.

The second is less straightforward - ideally you might be able to check on the manufacturer's website to see what they say about compromising the fire resistance of the doorset.  Some do have "Certifire" certificates that tell you all you need to know about this aspect of performance - some don't!

Of course, checking this stuff ought to be part of a planned maintenance regime (like any other item of fire protection) - BS 8214: 2016 give guidance on what this ought to include, plus recommendations for repair.  It's not particularly challenging to achieve, if done by competent persons.

[Tom W]

I'm only here because Fishy said it was a much better thread than the one I was reading at the time.

My two penneth is you can ask for a Hardware Performance Sheet (EN 16035:2012) this can help you decide if the closer is suitable for the doorset.

[Geoff]

Are they similar to the ones in this post froma couple of years ago?

http://www.crisis-response.com/forum/index.php?topic=6250.0

[Tom Sutton]

Check out http://firecode.org.uk/Code_of_Practice_hardware_for_fire_and_escape_doors.pdf it covers what I think you are talking about.