Do I need a seperate FRA for the staff I have in some one elses building

[Fire Monkey]

Hello,

Can any one advise on the guidance/legislation that shows that if a company has staff in another companies building (office staff with a lease in place) that a FRA is required for them in addition to the FRA for the building as a whole. My assumption is that each employer is required to assess their own staff and that suitable co-operation and co-ordination is required (Article 22).

So is it essential or recommended or not required.

Are there specific forms out there for this?

Thanks

Monkey.

[nearlythere]

The FRA isn't just to cover employees.

(a)any person (including the responsible person) who is or may be lawfully on the premises; and
(b)any person in the immediate vicinity of the premises who is at risk from a fire on the premises,

[AnthonyB]

In an office suite in a multi occupancy the RP is the tenant because:
- they are an employer and it is their workplace
- they have a degree of control via their lease

The landlord and agent aren't responsible for this part of the building as it isn't their workplace or within their control so they don't FRA it beyond anything in their control such as a communal alarm.

So a multi occupancy should have several FRAs covering bits of it hence why there is Article 22

[Fire Monkey]

In this case there is a team working in an open plan office in a building with a Facilities manager and Reception. The team does not mange the building in any way. They would share the means of escape.

They may have members of the public that might have special needs or complex behaviours.

Article 8 & 9?

[Tom Sutton]

I would think FM, your assumptions are correct and each building has to be treated as separate premises/workplace, also the employer, as the Responsible Person, has to implement article 8 to 22, which includes conducting a FRA for both places, which means no special forms just two FRA are required. Also as The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 is involved, it is essential.

If the second building is a multi-occupied premises, take note, a premises means any premises or parts of premises, not being domestic premises, used for the purposes of an employer's undertaking, which are made available to an employee of the employer as a place of work and including, any place within the premises to which such employee has access while at work and any room, lobby, corridor, staircase, road, or other place, used as a means of access to or egress from that place of work or where facilities are provided for use in connection with that place of work, other than a public road.

[Fire Monkey]

Hi,

Just to clarify - this is all one building - the team concerned are in an open plan area surrounded by the staff of the landlord.

The landlord insists  that no FRA is required citing that we, as tenants, have no degree of control.

The landlord also states that any FRA for my staff should only be for the immediate area that they sit. Of course this means, according to them, the corridors, means of escape, essential fire safety equipment within and meeting rooms, which they have a right to use, are completely non relevant.

They have also stated that they do not need to see a copy of my FRA - no cooperation and coordination needed here!

The landlord FRA (for the whole building including where my staff are states : there not enough fire wardens, training is not sufficient, induction training doe not occur, un-suitable arrangements to provide visitors and contractors with fire safety information, insufficient checks on final exits, insufficient signage insufficient fire door design, insufficient detection, insufficient compartmentalisation and so on and so on.

[Tom Sutton]

I would disagree entirely, you are dealing with workplaces therefore article 3(a) only applies and the employer is the RP, and has a duty to implement articles 8 to 22 under article 5(1). (As it is a workplace article 3(b) does not apply)
 
You have two sets of employees therefore two FRAs and for the extent of the workplace, check out the definition of a workplace in article 2, which includes the corridors, means of escape and meeting rooms, which they have a right to use.

The landlord could be a Person Having Control and have duties under article 5(3) but the RP also has a duty to implement articles 8 to 22 as well, having said that, the RP has a get out of jail card, under article 33, the PHC doesn't.

Check out http://www.safetylawyers.co.uk/fire-safety/

[nearlythere]

And the means of escape ends at a place of safety, not at a few steps towards the office door.

[Bill J]

The landlord FRA (for the whole building including where my staff are states : there not enough fire wardens, training is not sufficient, induction training doe not occur, un-suitable arrangements to provide visitors and contractors with fire safety information, insufficient checks on final exits, insufficient signage insufficient fire door design, insufficient detection, insufficient compartmentalisation and so on and so on.

I think your statement above explains why the Landlord does not want another risk assessment which details the shortfall.

As an employer, your staff are your responsibility, from point of entry, (And the surrounds for the pedantics amongst us). They need to benefit from all of the arrangements in place, and they need to ensure that they do not adversely effect the arrangements in place to ensure the safety of "others"........and of course "others" have a responsibility to reciprocate!

Bill
 

[Davo]

FM

Have you had sight of their FRA?

Is the open plan just yours or mixed occupancy?

In regards to the landlord, of course your staff have a degree of control by their actions. I would do the FRA and give him a copy, duty done, simples!

davo

[Fire Monkey]

Hi,

Yes I have a copy of their FRA. The open plan area is occupied by the landlord and ourselves.

Cheers,