Author Topic: Fire alarm panel location issue  (Read 17801 times)

Offline Mar62

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Fire alarm panel location issue
« on: June 20, 2018, 01:47:56 PM »
So a client has a multi occupied office building and without me being aware prior, has spent thousands having their reception area refurbished with a granite marble effect wall surface. The fire alarm panel is currently behind a plant room door (off of reception), which is locked when building manager leaves but some tenants remain in building (have highlighted this before). So it would have been the ideal chance to install a repeater panel. Now they have refused as installation of a repeater panel now would damage the new wall surface.

Any practical solutions that anyone has had previously? Have considered a few but not what i would consider suitable.
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Offline Owain

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Re: Fire alarm panel location issue
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2018, 07:37:12 PM »
If there's access behind the wall for cabling, I'd be very surprised if a granite contractor can't cut a hole in-situ and hide it with a bezel.

Or is it possible to use a weatherproof enclosure on the outside of the building?

Offline Mar62

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Re: Fire alarm panel location issue
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2018, 10:00:04 AM »
Hi Owain, no the wall behind is solid and i dont believe there is any cavity between the granite surface and original wall and the landlord wont now touch the wall surface. The location where the building is (dubious part of London), someone would have the panel off and away with it probably.

It has been suggested to put a key in a key box outside the plant room door with a clear notice but I'm not sure if the brigade would see that as suitable.
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Offline Owain

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Re: Fire alarm panel location issue
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2018, 06:05:24 PM »
The location where the building is (dubious part of London), someone would have the panel off and away with it probably.

It has been suggested to put a key in a key box outside the plant room door with a clear notice but I'm not sure if the brigade would see that as suitable.

What happens when there's a fire in the plant room? Aren't fire panels supposed to be near to a means of entry/exit and in as safe a location as possible?

Offline Fire Monkey

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Re: Fire alarm panel location issue
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2018, 03:29:08 PM »
Can wires for a repeater panel go up through the ceiling (fire stop the holes of course) and back out so a panel can be located in a different area. What are the standards applicable of having a repeater panel with a wireless connection?

Offline David Rooney

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Re: Fire alarm panel location issue
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2018, 05:43:07 PM »

A lot depends on the make of the panel. Kentec do have a wireless network option so it is possible to get a repeater going, Advanced have the "Touch" screen that's lovely to look at.

Are you simply trying to get "controls" outside the cupboard for use by the tenants to silence if it all goes off or are you wanting an indication of where it's gone off?

Depending on the system you may be able to program a "silence" switch on the loop somewhere more accessible, or install a paging system that will display the origin of the alarm on the pagers.
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Offline nearlythere

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Re: Fire alarm panel location issue
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2018, 04:24:01 PM »
So a client has a multi occupied office building and without me being aware prior, has spent thousands having their reception area refurbished with a granite marble effect wall surface. The fire alarm panel is currently behind a plant room door (off of reception), which is locked when building manager leaves but some tenants remain in building (have highlighted this before). So it would have been the ideal chance to install a repeater panel. Now they have refused as installation of a repeater panel now would damage the new wall surface.

Any practical solutions that anyone has had previously? Have considered a few but not what i would consider suitable.

Why do you want access to the panel Mar62?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Fishy

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Re: Fire alarm panel location issue
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2018, 05:08:04 PM »
Quote from BS 5839-1:

"a) Indicating equipment, in conjunction with suitable manual control facilities, should be sited at an appropriate location for both staff and firefighters responding to a fire signal, such that controls can be readily operated and indications are readily visible. This should normally comprise an area on the ground floor close to the entrance to the building likely to be used by the fire and rescue service, or a suitably sited, continuously manned control room from which at least initial control of any fire incident, by staff and/or the fire and rescue service, will be implemented...

...g) In premises in multiple occupation with communal parts, main CIE should be located within a communal area, such as an entrance hall. Where no communal parts exist, the equipment should be sited in an area to which access is possible at all times that the premises are generally occupied
"

The existing doesn't seem to comply with the above - that doesn't necessarily make it unsafe, of course.

As David Rooney says, much depends upon the capabilities of the particular CIE - contact the manufacturer (if they still exist) and ask if a remote display option is available (a panel of zone indicating LEDs together with a zone diagram might be all you need)?  Also depends upon whether it's a straightforward single-stage evac, or it's something more complex like phased evac or staff alarms, where the user will require swift access to the panel?


Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Fire alarm panel location issue
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2018, 08:51:38 PM »
The question is, will it affect the safety of relevant persons? (as oppose to property protection)

We all know where there should be indication and the advantages for investigation & fire service operations, but the canny client knows BS isn't law and needs convincing (especially where expensive posh receptions are concerned)
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Offline Fishy

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Re: Fire alarm panel location issue
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2018, 07:15:59 AM »
The question is, will it affect the safety of relevant persons? (as oppose to property protection)

We all know where there should be indication and the advantages for investigation & fire service operations, but the canny client knows BS isn't law and needs convincing (especially where expensive posh receptions are concerned)

If it's a straightforward single-stage 'everybody out' alarm, then it might well be the case that occupant safety is adequately catered for currently, as the evacuation will commence immediately whether the panel is accessible or not.  Might not be the case if the evacuation strategy is more complex - see the last sentence in my previous reply (we've not been told whether this is the case or not)?

It would certainly aid fire-fighters for the location to be identifiable at their point of entry, but strictly speaking that's outside the scope of a standard fire risk assessment so the client would need to accept that they would be doing the right thing by instructing the modifications, rather than just the minimum that the Law demands.

Offline Mar62

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Re: Fire alarm panel location issue
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2018, 05:13:05 PM »
Apologies but I'm not sure how to quote different messages back in the same message.

OWAIN - So the door behind where the panel is leads down to a basement area but the actual plant room is behind a further HEAVY metal door so the staircase where the panel actually is, is segregated from any equipment.

Ceilings are all solid concrete.

Wireless could well be an option that i hadn't thought of.

The evac policy is single stage alarm. Its not a huge building. 4 occupied levels normally. Out of hours worker if any will be on third floor.

Really looking for access to the panel as occupants do work in the building sometimes overnight depending on work pressures, when there is no building manager so wanted access so that tenants can see location of activation. Occupants are informed to call 999 if alarms activate out of working hours so thought best for Fire Brigade to have access to panel.

Maybe ill go back to the landlord and just tell them not to worry too much.

Its just we had another building a while ago where LFB got involved and made a mountain out of a mole hill about not having a repeater panel and its a smaller building than this!

Thank you all...
Each and every day is a learning curve and today is one of those days?

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Fire alarm panel location issue
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2018, 06:43:56 PM »
Apologies but I'm not sure how to quote different messages back in the same message.

OWAIN - So the door behind where the panel is leads down to a basement area but the actual plant room is behind a further HEAVY metal door so the staircase where the panel actually is, is segregated from any equipment.

Ceilings are all solid concrete.

Wireless could well be an option that i hadn't thought of.

The evac policy is single stage alarm. Its not a huge building. 4 occupied levels normally. Out of hours worker if any will be on third floor.

Really looking for access to the panel as occupants do work in the building sometimes overnight depending on work pressures, when there is no building manager so wanted access so that tenants can see location of activation. Occupants are informed to call 999 if alarms activate out of working hours so thought best for Fire Brigade to have access to panel.

Maybe ill go back to the landlord and just tell them not to worry too much.

Its just we had another building a while ago where LFB got involved and made a mountain out of a mole hill about not having a repeater panel and its a smaller building than this!

Thank you all...

Provide a sign on outside of door with the name of contact and telephone number to call in the event of actuation of the system.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline David Rooney

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Re: Fire alarm panel location issue
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2018, 12:13:43 PM »
Apologies but I'm not sure how to quote different messages back in the same message.

OWAIN - So the door behind where the panel is leads down to a basement area but the actual plant room is behind a further HEAVY metal door so the staircase where the panel actually is, is segregated from any equipment.

Ceilings are all solid concrete.

Wireless could well be an option that i hadn't thought of.

The evac policy is single stage alarm. Its not a huge building. 4 occupied levels normally. Out of hours worker if any will be on third floor.

Really looking for access to the panel as occupants do work in the building sometimes overnight depending on work pressures, when there is no building manager so wanted access so that tenants can see location of activation. Occupants are informed to call 999 if alarms activate out of working hours so thought best for Fire Brigade to have access to panel.

Maybe ill go back to the landlord and just tell them not to worry too much.

Its just we had another building a while ago where LFB got involved and made a mountain out of a mole hill about not having a repeater panel and its a smaller building than this!

Thank you all...

Provide a sign on outside of door with the name of contact and telephone number to call in the event of actuation of the system.

.... and stick a key to the door in a break glass box
CTA Fire - BAFE SP203 - F Gas Accredited - Wireless Fire Alarm System Specialists - Established 1985 - www.ctafire.co.uk
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Offline Clevelandfire 3

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Re: Fire alarm panel location issue
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2018, 01:31:06 PM »
One thing that hasn't been pointed out here is the need for the panel be checked daily for fault indications. So panel needs to be visible. Also you will need to inform local FRS that the panel isn't accessible - cos guess what they may say unless persons reported they aint searching floor upon floor upon floor room after room to find location of the activation.

Offline colin todd

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Re: Fire alarm panel location issue
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2018, 06:45:44 PM »
Clevey!!!!!! Where have you been? I thought you were sold off to the private sector, never to be heard of again.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates