Help needed - fatalities

[Markbr]

Hi everyone. I am trying to collect some information that I think can only come from the direct experience of firefighters. I have trawled through loads of stats without success.

The issue I am concered with is whether having closed doors saves lives or the converse that open doors cost lives.

The reason I am interested is that I am trying to provide evidence to ODPM that if there was a mechanism to ensure self closing doors close when a fire starts in a dwelling, lives would be saved.

Sprinkler system would probably be better but it looks like the BRE have ruled them out for dwellings on cost grounds. The cost of an electromagnetic system for a dwelling could be less that £150 when installed as part of the build process.

If I can demonstrate that 10 lives a year might be saved then I believe there is a financial case for ODPM to mandate that all HMO's and social housing are fitted with a domestic version of the electromagnetic door holding systems you see in commercial buildings that hold doors open but release when the smoke/fire alarm systems are triggered.

I must declare a vested interest in that I have been researching the problems of self closing doors being wedged open in the community and I believe that there are viable solutions out there, including an idea I have developed myself. In spite of my own interests, I genuinely believe that if high risk dwellings had automatically closing doors then lives would be saved.

Can I invite an open disussion of what evidence there is out there from incidents that closed doors save lives or open doors cost lives?

Many thanks, Mark

[wee brian]

Mark you need to understand the sums. Building regs only affects new homes. There are about 22 million (ish) homes in the E&W and we build an extra 1% each year. So it will be a long time before sufficient numbers of homes are actually affected.

Read the Impact assesment in ODPMs consultation paper carefully before you make your play.

[Markbr]

Thanks Brian, i presume you are referring the Part B consultation?

I agree the regs only affect new buidings and conversions. I guess if ODPM require a business case to pay back from day 1 then nothing would ever get passed. Any idea over what period they assess the viability of new measures? Persumably the debate on sprinklers must have had the same challenge?

Cheers, Mark

[dave bev]

mark there has been some discussion over closing doors etc and advice given to householders - ncfsc may know more. alos if it saves one life a year its good by me, but to be honest i cant see the govt making any prescriptive requirements to save ten lives if they see the cost as disproportionate

dave bev

[colin todd]

Unless its yours Davey, and then payment of all the camels in the deserts of Arabia, would be a price too small to pay.

[Markbr]

Davey you may be right but the the proposed amendments to Part B do mandate an addtional smoke alrams to be fitted in the main bedroom. Furthermore look at all the mony ODPM spent investigating whether spinkelrs could be made mandatory in domestic houses. I think the debate is still running on HMO's and care homes.

I guess therefore either when it suits them or there is some sort of business case, ODPM have the menas to introduce new manadatory measures, or as is  proposed for self closing doors, take them away.

[wee brian]

Mark

Its all in the Impact assesment (for Part B) I think its usually judged over ten years.

That's ten years worth of buildings, ten years worth of costs, ten years worth of lives saved.

The added complication is that in year one you have one years worth of new buildings but in year two you get the benefits of year one and two but only the costs of year two etc.

[Markbr]

Thanks Brian, that very useful information.

The trick though is in assessing just how many lives it could save and at the moment I am drawing a big blank. I really have no idea how to get to any figures, anecdotal or otherwise other than to ask in-service and retired firefighters for their opinions.

Any suggestions very gratefully recieved.

[dave bev]

what is the 'main bedroom' ? the fbu will be including reference to this in their submission on the consultation document - good try , but no cigar!

dave bev

[Markbr]

Sorry, Dave I have had a quick skim through the AD B amendments and I can't find a definition. Perhaps someone with sharper eyes may have spotted something?

Ar the FBU supporting the proposal to remove the requirement for self closing doors?

[colin todd]

Its the largest bedroom.

[dave bev]

thats the problem colin, the intention i understand is that the alarm would wake the 'parents' - however many single parents let their eldest have the largest bedroom or alllow more than one child to share it - so it may not achieve what it is hoped

mark - we will be making our comments available when we have finished them!

dave bev

[colin todd]

Beverley Beverley has the largest bedroom in Beverley Towers? Isnt that taking the commie equality thing too far?

[Apollo_SG]

it depends essential where the doors lead to and what is the purpose of such doors?

for means of escape, there is 2 situation to consider. for buildings with and without smoke free approach. tall buildings are equipped with smoke free approach generally becos of the stack effect.

prior to the implementation of such "smoke-free lobbies" there has been a nos of incidents where fire-fighters were killed, due to sudden gush of hot gases towards the fire-fighters when the doors are opened.

for lowrise buildings, smoke free approach are generally not needed. however, an interesting reseach by Prof Frantzich of Lund University on IKEA warehouse has shown that evacuees actually moves towards open doors as opposed to general approach of walking towards the same direction where they have entered. I believe G Proulx and Rita Fahy has made some reference in their technical papers as well.

[davio1960]

Mark
The main problem with the fitting of auto closers...whatever type you install is that the owner will have a  fire alarm system installed and working as the trigger to operate all/any devices.
I have found this not to be the case and the main sticking point.....come the day of the revolution and maybe all owners will be really nice fluffy bunnies...ah well we can but dream.

Residentila/domestic sprinklers fitted throughout all areas of the building is the only way forward. But  with these we have problems with the costs of the adaption of the water supply from the mains in the street to the internal stopcock.

Davio1960