Electro-magnetic Door Retainer

[andyrew]

Does anyone know if there are any standards or recommendations for the installation of smoke detectors within 1m of a door which has electro-magnetic door retainer fitted.

I have seen it somewhere before, although I know it's not in BS5839, I am sure it's under building regs.

This is for a job in Scotland so it will need to be relevant to Scotland only.

I have done a search on the internet but not come up with an answer, does anyone know where it is or am I mistaken!!

Thanks

[andyrew]

As always you ask directions and it turns out you're outside the place!

I found something in the Building Regs Scotland Part D Structural Fire Precautions which talks about self closing fire doors having a smoke detector "not less than 300mm or more than 3m from the door"

Is this still current?

[david harris]

The chief Fire officer's Association (CFOA) published some guidance in 2003 regarding magnetic hold open devices and it stated that the "old" method ie 1m either side of the door should be discontinued as the smoke may of lost it's buoyancy by the time it reaches the detector.

It suggests that a category L3 BS 5839 fire alarm system, ie, one that provides detection in the escape routes and rooms off it should be the minimum requirement.

To have a look at the document go to:

http://www.cfoa.org.uk/cfoa_public/default.asp?id=307

[wee brian]

Theres a reference to this in BS 5839 pt 1. Its says you need to consider the problems of smoke skipping detectors but doesn't go so far as to tell you what to do about it.

[colin todd]

Oh yes it does!

[andyrew]

I assume Colin Todd doesn't sleep or he posts messages automatically to make it look like he is still working!

What does it say you have to do?

Also does anyone know if the reference I refer to in my 2nd message is still current as it stipulates smoke detectors either side anyway?

[colin todd]

It says to deal with the problem of smoke by-passing detectors you need an L3 system. That is for warning though, nothing to do with doors, but Wee B correctly infers that the same problem could occur. You will need to wait for the new BS 7273-4 for more definitve guidance.  Re your second message, you should be looking at the Scottish Technical Handbook for guidance on requirements of the Building (Scotland) Regs 2004.

[colin todd]

PS No time to sleep, as I am working on a revision of the book I write on BS 5839-1 and have a load of exam papers to mark from fire risk assessment courses.

[Graeme]

is there going to be more amendments added Colin?

[Allen Higginson]

PS No time to sleep, as I am working on a revision of the book I write on BS 5839-1 and have a load of exam papers to mark from fire risk assessment courses.

Signed copies on ebay Colin?

[colin todd]

Graeme, The BS was amended in January. No further amendments are planned at present. My text book on the BS is currently out of print, and I am doing a new version that will be published by BSI themselves. But I am also taking the opportunity to update the text to reflect forthcoming changes in legislation, the January amendment, any ambiguities that have arisen in interpretation of the BS, etc.
Buzzy B, Men from NI are virtually honorary Scots in my book, so a signed copy will be available to you at half the list price.

[Graeme]

thanks Colin,just checking there was not going to be any amendments to the amended version.

[Allen Higginson]

Graeme, The BS was amended in January. No further amendments are planned at present. My text book on the BS is currently out of print, and I am doing a new version that will be published by BSI themselves. But I am also taking the opportunity to update the text to reflect forthcoming changes in legislation, the January amendment, any ambiguities that have arisen in interpretation of the BS, etc.
Buzzy B, Men from NI are virtually honorary Scots in my book, so a signed copy will be available to you at half the list price.

And as an honorary Scot I'll hold you to that!!

[Graeme]

On a similarish theme.I often provide relay units for PC based access control systems which have a dedicated fire link inside the control cabinets.
These drop out all locks,magnets and electric strikes but what about the stand alone types?
i.e Keypad and strike on a single door.
I have a site where during an inspection has created a new door in a communal escape that has a keypad and strike.Although anyone coming from the secure side can get out by using the handle the other way is blocked if you don't know the code.The non secure side has the main entrance nearby but worst case sceanario and the entrance was smoke filled the secure door would be the only way to go.
Should this be interfaced to the fire system? and is there any reference i can go to regarding access controlled doors and fire systems?
I would think if it's on a door providing an escape then it should unlike a door that opens into a room.

Usually the doors which are held shut by a magnet are provided with a fire relay as well as the green bgu.

I have also been asked to provide relay to drop out an entrance door controlled by an intercom system.In event of fire people would use handle to get out as per any other door but i think it's for Fire fighters to get in quicker.
This is okay during the day but at night the strike is overridden by a mortice lock so they would have to break the door in anyway.
I will do as instructed but agin can i reffer to anything on this situation?

Many thanks

g

[colin todd]

It will all be in BS 7273-4 once published.