Closers on ALL doors

[Collegeboy]

Hello friends
I did ask this question on a safelincs forum and got a nice reply from Anthony Buck but the reply I gave to his question asked doesnt seem to be coming up, thought I`d just try here and see if anyone has any views, Hello

advice on closers please, got a council building, 3 floors high, each with lots of offices as you can imagine being a council, each corridor has fire doors on self closers at each end, however, the corridors themselves have about 6 offices in each corridor, the doors to each office are approx 45mm thick, got 3 hinges and have brown strips in them, although no badges saying Fire Door Keep Shut, Should ALL these doors have a self closer or are the ones at entrance / exit from corridor enough ?

Thanks

 Quote
AnthonyB

How long is the corridor, is it in the same occupancy and what detection is present? They may not need to be fire doors onto the corridor

AnthonyB said:
How long is the corridor, is it in the same occupancy and what detection is present? They may not need to be fire doors onto the corridor

Not sure if reply is working 😞 the reply doesnt seem to be coming up, I`ll try again, corridors are approx 20 - 25m long, North end has Fire door on closer that leads to stairwell going to final door out the building, South end leads to Stairwell that has a lift, goes down to lobby that has another fire door that leads to reception and way out, there is full fire detection and lighting, the offices on each floor have thick 45mm doors with brown strips on both sides and across tops, no closers, no keep shut signs, point is, I Though ALL fire doors had to have self closer Unless the door was to a cupboard / store that would be Locked Why spend money on a 45mm door and put strips in if they dont need it and dont need closers?

Thanks

[Collegeboy]

Just as an add, watching a video on youtube by bwf and comment made is,  Quote " ALL Fire doors Must have a self closing device except in the case of dwelling houses or where Fire doors are required to be locked" Unquote  

[Seetek]

Hi Collegeboy,

You haven't said whether there are protected stairs at each end of the corridor and the CLG guide doesn't help answer your question but in AD B - Enclosure of corridors that are not protected corridors. Section 2.25 -

If a corridor is used for a means of escape but is not a protected corridor, even though the enclosing partitions may have no fire resistance, both of the following should be met to inhibit the spread of smoke.
a. Partitions should continue to the soffit of the structural floor above, or to a suspended ceiling.
b. Openings into rooms from the corridor should be fitted with doors, which do not need to be fire door-sets.
Open planning will not inhibit the spread of smoke, but occupants can become aware of a fire quickly.

And BS9999 is similar;

16.3.11.2. - Enclosure of corridors that are not protected corridors
Where a corridor that is used as a means of escape, but is not a protected corridor, is enclosed by partitions, the partitions should be:
a) smoke-retarding, even if they have no required fire resistance rating;
b) carried up to the soffit of the structural floor above, or to a suspended ceiling.
Openings into rooms from the corridor should be fitted with doors, which need not be fire-resisting but should be close-fitting.

There's an assumption that you wouldn't leave your office door open.

[Dinnertime Dave]

You have two directions of travel, therefore the doors do not need to be fire resistant or have self- closers.

[AnthonyB]

i.e. it doesn't need to be a protected corridor although ADB always wanted a protected corridor if the rooms off the corridor were under different occupancy unless the whole storey had AFD.

If it's a long corridor cross corridor doors might be needed.

[Collegeboy]

Hey chaps
thanks so much for replies, the stairs at each end of the corridors can only be accessed through 30fds doors, .... barring the comment from the bwf video ( ALL fire doors should have self closers unless dwelling houses or cupboards) I couldnt work out WHY the builders put 30 minute doors on the offices with intu strips but no closers, good point on Seetek`s reply, (There`s an assumption you wont leave door open) BUT, if they did, then the intu strips would be pointless, Im just surprised that expensive 44mm heavy doors with strips were fitted without closers  and should they be told to fit closers so the intu could do its job or just leave because with full AFD they`ll be able to access egress route behind fd30s doors to a sterile stairwell in seconds ? another point of concern was IF a door WAS left open and fire broke out in office with no one in there, are they risking smoke contamination in the corridor before reaching the fd30s doors ? we all know just how quick smoke can start to fill a corridor :/ 

[Tom Sutton]

Can you get to a relatively safe area (Staircase enclosure ) with the required travel time/distance?

[Collegeboy]

Yes Tom, you can, so the worry is not so much about safety, the query is because they`ve gone to the trouble of installing 44mm thick doors with intu strip but no closer and the comment of bwf stating "If its a fire door it should have a closer unless a cupboard / store / dwelling" should they be told to install closers as the intu fitted isnt going to work if door is left open or is there an assumption as Seetek says that the office door wont be left open 
Good comment but if an Assessor ASSUMED something and it didnt happen then someone got hurt then sparks would fly 
 

[Tom Sutton]

The point worth considering is any doors you need to pass though within the travel distance do not need to be fire doors and because these doors may be fire doors, dosent mean they are necessary and consequently self closers would not be required.

[Collegeboy]

I agree wholeheartedly Tom, but WHY supply & Fit 30 minute doors then, especially with intu strip  without a closer, if the door is left open then the intu becomes Useless  it also throws out the bwf advice of " If it`s a Fire Door, It Needs a closer" (comment made at approx 15:20)  ....  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZtX4ttRGuQ .....  apparently, No it Does not  no wonder people get confused    Thanks all for your comments on this, more appreciated than you know 

[Dinnertime Dave]

I agree wholeheartedly Tom, but WHY supply & Fit 30 minute doors then

This is quite normal. The owners normally want the same style of door throughout. At least they have taken the FDKS signs off.

[Collegeboy]

Thanks again to All 
Your comments, Advice, Opinions & Expertise , as always, is invaluable
Consider yourselves all bought a pint