PERKOs on Fire Doors

[Davo]

We have a nine floor hostel block and all the fire doors on the top four floors are fitted with Perko doorclosers when they were refurbished in 2001
As they are failing we have fitted ordinary closers
One of the Perkos has been removed and there is a massive six inch long borehole in the door lip.
Obviously I will have it filled in to 30, but can anyone advise how they are fitted, ie will there be intumescent as one does for normal fittings?

ta

davo

[wee brian]

If it was me I would just fill the hole with a wooden plug - to the full depth of the hole and glue it in place. you could probably get some dowel rods made up to the right diameter.

If the door needed intumescent on the edge then this should be repaired.

I doubt you could get anybody to certify that thedoor is still FD30 but in practice this will probably be good enough.

[kurnal]

With all due respect to perko, the chances are that if someone has fitted one of these they are not likely to have thought about door integrity or intumescent paper etc.
A low pressure intumescent foam or mastic would be another alternative to a plug of timber with the added advantage of also infilling any cylindrical voids that have been breached during the fitting of the perko.

[Auntie LIn]

I wouldn't mess around with intumescent foam to fill a void left by a stile closer.  Go for solid timber.
And I won't ask why Kurnal is talking about intumescent paper!

[kurnal]

Well my giddy Aunt I often find myself having to make many compromises and trying to find pragmatic solutions to inherited problems.
Sometimes I find myself feeding on the bottom of the pond in neglected old buildings, often in the hands of charities etc  which were poorly upgraded in the first place and where there is a need to make improvements or repairs but where there is no funding for wholesale improvements.  So you have to make the most of what is there. Like those horrible cheap fire doors marketed in the 80s of chipboard and cylindrical voids, and which may or may not have been properly fire tested (remember the court case?).

The paper comes in in similar circumstances when latches have been replaced and on examination you find a large cavity round the mortice  lock or latch. At least a void filled with intumescent material is safer than fresh air and thin timber. Also in old buildings where gaskets are needed because old hinges are replaced with thinner modern equivalents. I usually ask for the carboard fag packets and slivers of softwood to be replaced with  strips of intumescent veneer boards.

Then for work in heritage buildings we sometimes have to agree to upgrade doors towards a recognised standard- for example to accept a door for which the spec can never achieve a standard that would pass a test in the real world, but will satisfy the heritage people. I remember one discussion over some doors to a staircase in a 250 year old mill in which the doors had huge chunks taken out by years of wear- and the holes and wear were  considered to be of historical interest illustrating the way the building had been used. So we reached a compromise and the holes were infilled and the replacement timber left undecorated to leave the wear still on display. Its often seat of the pants stuff, based on your best guess and the only assurance is that by using (and abusing) modern technology along with building management you can leave the place safer than you found it.  But I would never be so brave as to predict a fire performance and ensure that this is understood by all concerned.

[Auntie LIn]

We've all of us tried to do our best for poverty-stricken charities.

If you're taking a pragmatic approach, Kurnal don't compromise with intumescent paper - unless you're quite happy that it won't stay undamaged for long.   I've done enough building surveys where fire doors have been "upgraded" using intumescent paper where the paper (which to my mind has the same consistency as blotting paper) has become scored or torn in very short order.

You might be surprised to know that the extruded chipboard cored doors you are so dubious about give a surprisingly good fire resistance - certainly better than you might expect from 25mm diameter holes in the middle of a 44mm thick construction.

Don't you think you are treading on dodgy ground replacing old hinges with modern, thinner 'equivalents'?
Yes, I agree that the hinges more likely than not need replacing, but hinges do need to be of a certain thickness and blade width to be able to carry the relevant weight of a door.   Many of the problems we see on site are caused by someone going out and picking up a cheap hinge because it looks about the right size (and the price is right).   As you can lead a horse to water, so can you lead a client to a responsible choice of hardware but...... doesn't mean he/she will use it.

Couldn't agree more about the need to balance out preservation of heritage with the need to offer some form of fire protection.   And you're right - prediction of fire performance is best left to those with crystal balls.