Author Topic: Pas 79  (Read 26213 times)

Offline cbfire999

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
    • www.firesafety.org.uk
Pas 79
« on: February 09, 2006, 08:42:22 AM »
I am looking to carry out a fire risk assessment for a friend of mine.  I have a fire background and was wondering if anyone can tell me whether PAS 79 would help me.  Furthermore, if it is beneficial, would it cover the requirements of the forthcoming RRO?

Your views would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Offline PhilB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 963
Pas 79
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2006, 09:03:08 AM »
PAS79 provides a framework for carrying out a risk assessment that may produce a suitable & sufficient result. What concerns me slightly is that you say you have a fire background, what does that mean?

There are many retired members of FRS that think the fact that they have riden on a red lorry deems them competent to assess premises for fire safety, some are, some clearly are not. I have seen risk assessments that have been produced by retired fire safety officers that scare the hell out of me, but I scare easily! Not that I'm suggesting you're incompetent, just making a point that may start some discussion.

There are many frameworks, methodologies, templates etc. out there some are better than others. Some are very poor and in my opinion are not suitable or sufficient.

Any method used is only as good as the person using it. PAS79, in my opinion,  would meet the needs of the RRFSO provided the assessor is a suitably competent person. Mr Todd does point this out in the document.

I do hoewever believe that there are better methods out there.

Offline cbfire999

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
    • www.firesafety.org.uk
Pas 79
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2006, 12:16:33 PM »
Why Phil, thank you for your reply.  I must say that I have also seen some assessments carried out by retired and dare I say it serving Firemen that are extremely poor.  Likewise, I have seen assessments carried out by so called Fire Consultants that are just as shoddy, if not worse!

I have read on a number of posts, individuals having a dig at retired Fiermen carrying out Risk Assessments and I guess that you will not be the last!  Maybe, just maybe those that take these cheap shots were unable to pass the required aptitude tests!!

For the record, I do class myself as competent to carry out this line of work.  The reason for the enquiry was purely to find a suitable framework that would be sufficient and more importantly, legally binding.  What I am keen to avoid is to "cut and paste" documents from the bigger companies for which I have worked.

Your "expert knowledge" rather than sarcasm would be appreciated!  Thanks.  Mind you, having read this forum for a number of months now, I guess the sarcasm is what keeps me coming back!!

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Pas 79
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2006, 01:25:07 PM »
Its a tangled web we weave.
There are so many different messages coming out of the government, national bodies and other vested interests.
For example the government are very keen not to be seen to be increasing the burden on industry so take a very low key- suggesting that for most, straightforward premises almost any employee with a modicum of sense and knowledge and armed with the guidance can make a suitable and sufficient assessment of risk.

Those who remember  the damp squib of the workplace regs launch will probably have seen all the signs before!

But on the other hand  they support  the view that anybody who provides a risk assessment service should be accredited through an industry scheme (not yet in place). The Industry bodies then get together (BSI, FPA,IFE,) and they pay another vested interest, a practicioner in the field (albeit with a huge reputation and expertise) to devise such systems and standards by which the rest of us - as competitors- will have to conform if we are to join the club. Its potentially  all a bit incestuous in my opinion, with no forum for the rest of the industry to have our say.

Are industry based accreditation schemes really comparable with proper quality management schemes such as ISO 9000? Is there any ongoing audit of quality standards- with for example the IFE approved list?
Such systems really push up overheads - I am just looking at the ISO 9000 system and for my fairly small scale business its likely cost is £6k in the first year.
Whats the outcome of this gulf in standards?

The responsible person of the small to medium size business, who is not quite sure and would like some help from a competent person will be put off by the cost of bringing in an accredited consultant and so will wing it and hope not to get caught out. Theres not much point asking the Brigades for advice- the restrucures and modernisation will have them firmly foocussed on the high risk and community work.

The gulf could easily filled by an experienced competent ex FPO who can offer a competent level of service with minimal overheads, and with the experience and true competence of knowing their own limitations. So from my point of view cbfire- you go for it - your country needs you. PAS79 is an excellent foundation from which to work-  
but if you have experience you may not learn a lot new from it.

A final point- my reading of the current situation is that the government, not wishing to be seen to be increasing the burden on industry, is very happy for civil law claims and the insurance industry to carry out the role of enforcement. So the RRO will be a non event from its launch, for most premises enforcement will not be visible and the ultimate burden on industry will be all the greater as the insurance companies insist on risk assessments carried out by themselves or their approved agents.

Offline PhilB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 963
Pas 79
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2006, 02:07:17 PM »
Sorry if my response was taken as sarcasm, it was not intended to be. I should have made the point that I too have seen some assessments carried out by so called consultants and serving fire safety officers that are equally as scary as those from retired fire officers.

PAS79 may suit your needs if you want to pay £100. I can supply you with a suitable template if you prefer, no charge. Once agian the template will only produce a suitable & sufficient assessment if the person using it is competent.

Oh yes I forgot to mention.. I passed those very difficult aptitude tests many moons ago!

Offline cbfire999

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
    • www.firesafety.org.uk
Pas 79
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2006, 03:42:39 PM »
Thanks to you both for your honest replies.  
Phil, I would greatly appreciate it if you could email me a template.  I realise that at £100 you get what you pay for and I would appreciate any other software/hardware titles that you would suggest to carry out a suitable and sufficient assessment.  Thanks again.

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Pas 79
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2006, 04:05:29 PM »
PhilB
If at all possible I would be grateful for a look at your template- I am always interested in comparing approaches and measuring them against the definition of suitable and sufficient- its sometimes quite hard to find a balance between minimum requirements of S&S, providing sufficient background info to the client to enable them to effectively implement the action plan and saving the rain forests!

Currently I tend to use a bespoke report rather than a template, which will include a management summary, a SWOT analysis, identification of the benchmarks used in the assessment and how the premises measures against the benchmark(s)  ( hence the SWOT  analysis) then the significant findings and the prioritised action plan- with a commentary to accompany each recommendation giving a the reason why the recommendation is made and choice of solutions if possible. Throw in a matrix, some photos and you very quickly have a 60 page document which is often much more than the client wants!

Offline PhilB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 963
Pas 79
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2006, 04:14:27 PM »
Kurnal I have sent you one today. A word of warning a 60 page document with bells whistles photos and a matrix still may not be suitable and sufficient or adequately record the significant findings. Depending of course which definition of significant findings you chose to adopt!

I have seen very complex reports that appear to attempt to bore the person auditing into submission. Not that I'm accusing you of this of course!

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Pas 79
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2006, 04:39:45 PM »
Thanks very much Phil.
At first glance the plan could cause me a big problem-  and there doesn't appear to be any prioritisation of High to low risk.
But I will have a good look at it and respond later

As far as  the definition of  S&S is concerned then its got to be the management regs for now but anticipating some kind of change in April  I rejigged mine to use the RRO definition.

Still cant understand the full implications of article 47 disapplying the Management regs and HASAW S2 though but I guess Im not alone in that .............

Offline PhilB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 963
Pas 79
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2006, 04:57:08 PM »
You're very welcome Kurnal. Plan is not always necessary if you can record the preventitive & protective measures  in some other way. In complex buildings a plan is in my opinion the best way. Priority for taking action would be indicated on remedial action plan.

Glad to hear you're using the definintions in ACOP for MHSW Regs. Don't rejig yours to fit in with significant findings as defined in draft guidance!! The delay in implementing RRFSO was partly due to deficiencies with guidance, you may find amended definitions, we can only hope.

No problem with article 47, RRFSO requires suitable & sufficient risk assessment to be carried out and that significant findings are recorded. If guidance provides adequate definitions there will be no problem. If guidance suggests SFs are defects only...well I warned of the consequences of that in this forum a long time ago!!

Let's hope the circular giving guidance soon to be released resolves the matter, but I wouldn't hold your breath!

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Pas 79
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2006, 08:01:49 PM »
I agree Phil that plans are the best way but only as long as I dont have to draw them.
Most of my clients don't have plans and the economics in the commercial world dont run to it.
Take autocad (£2.5k for the software alone, digitiser, plotter, time....) most clients would not wear the additional costs. The economics are very tight and profit very hard to win.

A picture can paint a thousand words- I cant paint so I have to write.

Thanks for the audit checklist which reinforces my view that whilst the Government are publicly  pushing  "anybody can do it with the guide", the enforcing authorities will be taking a different view.

for example
"DOES THE ASSESSMENT CONTAIN CONCLUSIONS WITH SUFFICIENT REASONING AS TO THE SUITABILITY OF THE PREMISES CONSIDERING THE EXPECTED FIRE DEVELOPMENT, BUILDING PERFORMANCE & OCCUPANT CHARECTERISTICS I.E TIME Vs TENABILITY? "

HAVE OCCUPANCY CHARACTERISTICS & LIKELY RESPONSE IN AN EMERGENCY BEEN CONSIDERED?

Cant see anyone satisfying these criteria unless they have had the training.

Offline Fishy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
Pas 79
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2006, 10:57:22 PM »
Suggestions (no more than that):
- Never produce a fire risk assessment for anyone else, even if they ask you to.  Instead, help them do their own, using your advice as input if they consider they require it, but ensure that they know it's THEIR assessment, not yours.  This makes it far more likely that they will be used and reviewed.  In my experience, risk assessments generated only by consultants and treated as 'library' documents to be kept in the Company Secretary's filing cabinet are next to useless;
- Risk assessment does not mean compliance with standards - it means assessing risk and applying control measures appropriate to the risk.  If they have little risk, they require scant control measures - if they have high risk, they may require measures additional to those in the standards;
- Get yourself insurance appropriate to your liability, whether you charge for your services or not (giving advice free does not absolve you of a duty of care).

Offline Tom Sutton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2287
Pas 79
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2006, 11:39:14 AM »
The ODPM produces many fire safety guides at reasonable prices and sometimes free. Why is Pas79 so expensive, around £100 I understand.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline Brian Catton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
Pas 79
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2006, 03:33:43 PM »
Two reasons.
Firstly it was produced with British Standards and secondly there was a great deal of input from a very highly qualified and respected company of Fire Conultants who have a part copyright on the document. You get what you pay for.
The other thing about plans is yes they are a good source of reference but they are not required by law. Once you go down the plans route they have to be maintained as an accurate representation of the premises otherwise they are not worth the paper they are written on. Any consultant that produces plans must charge more fore their services. The whole system of RA was designed to reduce the burden on industry, not increase it.

Offline Tom Sutton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2287
Pas 79
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2006, 05:18:28 PM »
Quote
The whole system of RA was designed to reduce the burden on industry, not increase it.
Is not charging £100 for Pas 79 puting a burden on industry. Especially the smaller companies considering all the other guidance is at reasonaby cost except when I need to record the significant findings.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.