DATA2CABS in South Wales

[Enry]

I am a confused member of South Wales Fire and Rescue Services working in ( Fire Safety).
Can anyone explain to me what is the Brigades system called " DATA2CABS"  to assist Ops, and  is it being used by the Brigade?
Are we wasting our resources or am I getting lost in a time warp?

Please Help me to unravel my confusion
 
Thanks Enry

[AnthonyB]

The name may give it away - Data to cabs - cabs of appliances I presume. Turn up at a building fire, type in the address & occupier and download plans, special risk info, keyholder, etc.....

Or am I way off?

[Enry]

Thanks Anthony. Sounds sensible to me.
However where does the information come from.
1. Who decides what information is to be used on the Data To Cabs System?
2. How does it get onto the appliance
3. Do the plans come from the local council offices ( If so I don't think they would be suitable for    Ops?).
Some things don't appear straightforward.
cheers Enry

[kurnal]

Now now guys
Are you asking who is the software loader?
Are maps really plans?

[Enry]

Kurnal your on the ball,
I'm following the Info from the senior member Anthony B.
He says plans are downloaded from the appliance.
Where do these plans come from ?
anyone out there clear up this little mystery, I'm still confused and need to get some things clear in my head.
cheers Enry

[fireftrm]

Enry maybe you should be directing these questions in house. Amamzing that nay employee doesn't think of popping along the corridor and asking a colleague!

Then again maybe you are circimvenmting the prior posts over the system that gets the premises plans?

Similar on board data is being rolled out around the UK, it is one of the very best things to appear on an appliance ever. Hydrants, risks, chemdata, weather, SOPs, GRAs and much much more. Fantatstic stuff.

Get yourself down to one of those opertaional parts of your own organisation and take a look.

Don't be so blatantly stupid.

[Enry]

replyto fireftrm (Senior Member)
 Things are not always transparent at first.
  you say onboard data is being used throughout all Brigades. I beg to differ.  Many comments from fellow officers lead me to believe different systems exist in different brigades. So lets get this very clear so that I get the correct understanding of matters, and this can remove my confusion.
  After talking to many colleages I have the firm understanding that  the Data To Cabs is the initiative of the Fire Services throughout the U.K.
Is that part of the puzzle correct? Lets clear up this area first before I ask the next silly question, as you stated I don't want to make your day by appearing blatantly stupid......  but believe me there is a lot of confusion surrounding the Data to Cabs and diffferent Brigades may use different systems under different names, so I need to understand the basics before moving on.
cheers Enry

[TheTower]

There is a lot more on this subject on another forum if you would care to look in..

http://www.uk-fire.net/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=13449&page=4

[fireftrm]

Enry

Data sent to appliances, by whatever local/manufacturers name (such as Data2Cabs - yours, or Modas - mobile data system etc), is simply that. It is data (stuff with information in/on it) sent (by some means - usually radio transmission) to appliances (usually in their cabs, appliances being the red things that are often found in fire stations).  

You say that I say such systems are being used throughout  all brigades - here I BEG TO DIFFER. I said being rolled out. Which mobile data is. It is part of the Firelink project, which, as a serving fire and rescue service employee you should know all about, try reading FRS16.

Comments from fellow officers are right, there are some different systems presently in use, but they all share some common threads - they incorporate data interfaces (output devices such as monitors and printers, input devices such as keyboards, touch screens etc) transmission systems (radio normally) and the storage of data, sometimes only on a server for transmission, sometimes on the vehicle on a  hard drive. There you have the basics.

In maybe even more basic terms - if (as is clear you do) you can use a computer and you have a connection to, that frighteningly technical bit of wizzardry, the internet then you have a similar system to mobile data. Input devices, output devices, data storage and access to data from outside sources. Simple really.

Now go on surprise us with your next question (on the subject of who should provide the data and whether it is free, or not, no doubt)?

[Enry]

No I won’t be drawn to the obvious nasty question.
I’m really wet behind the ears and trying to remove some confusion that I have
 So up to date I  take it there are 2 basic systems.
1- where the communication link and data is always live and fed over radio waves to appliance.

 2- where the info reside on the hard drive of the appliance onboard compter, and is updated every 24 hours. Or at another convenient time.
Although very basic,Is that statement correct

Now let’s get the next point clear
The information used on the appliance is:
Premises address and location.
This is linked to the GIS system so can be used to direct the appliance to correct location
This information has come from information on file within the Brigade and is fed into the system via the admin department
Is this correct?
.(I know other info is involved, but I’ll leave that till later and concentrate on just Location address and GIS)

Ps anyone tell me when the powers above started the Firelink project, which was really a Government Initiative
Cheers Enry

[Enry]

Message to Member The Tower" , Interesting link. cheers.

Now back to Data to Cabs,

South Wales Ops / Fire Safety, you're all really a clever bunch and things don't just happen by themselves so:  Oh, and by way of a reminder Data To Cabs is not the RMAPS Initiative.

So now back to Data to Cabs.
Who tells you what information is to be gathered and entered on the D11 form?  Must be someone above Sub? so what level?

Oh and who collects the info to be entered on the 7.(2). (d) RISK CARD

 confused!!
cheers Enry

[fireftrm]

Enry - you are confused???!!**!x")!?, not half as much as us now. All these questions about SWFRS internal documentation really should be directed 'in house'. It is extremely unlikely that we would have any idea what a D11 is, or what section 7.2 covers. I thought D11 was some sort of aircraft, with the M missing and Section 7.2 on a risk card is meaningless in the extreme. We have no risk cards anyway! If you work for SWFRS go along the corridor and ask someone there. Not here, this is not for internal questions, your own workplace is the right arena.

As to the methods of storage - yes those are the basics.
As to plans - these are usually one of the types of data, where they come from, who transfers them to the system etc is irrelevant and also so varied that it is not possible to make this a cause for discussion here, Internal questions will get the answers you want I am sure.

The 'powers above' are the ODPM. Firelink is a governemnt led intitiative yes. It started as radio replacement prior to 9/11 on a basis that each FRS would be responsible for their own scheme. The need for a co-ordinated communication system for all national emergency services, identified in the aftermath of the WTC event, brought about Firelink as it is now.

As you state that you are an employee of SWFRS please do not trivialise this discussion forum with questions which are clearly for you to discuss with your colleagues, I am still sure that you are building up to some form of dialogue around who/what is put onto premises plans in SWFRS. We are not interested.

It appears you have no one to talk to at work, or no one who will talk to you. If so maybe, just maybe, they are trying to tell yu something and you should be looking elsewhere for employment. I would not expect any FRS employee to display such crass stupidity as to go onto a website asking questions that they should either already know, or be more than capable of finding out in two minutes by asking a colleague. Incredible that you expect us to answer such questions that you are in a position (which we are not) to get responses to, without leaving your workplace.

[kurnal]

Now I'm confused too!
I thought that Firelink was born out of the tetra ( Trans European Trunked Radio ) initiative which as I recollect certainly pre dated 9/11. And the idea was that all emergency services and defence forces would have access to this trunked radio scheme- to enable for example a  Fire officer on a fireground  could speak on a handheld to an expert adviser - (maybe even from the ODPM  ha ha)- for crucial information relating to an incident.

I may be wrong but in the mid 90s we were certainly looking towards a national rather than local radio schemes. And that was a long long time before 9/11.  And I also may be wrong but it often appears to me that  our political masters, very often followed by senior managers of emergency services who often are entirely task focussed and keen to do their bit to follow the politicians lead, are very keen to use spin to justify and push through their new ideas without the normal degree of thought, consultation and communication.

And here is an example- if I am correct-  of the spin of  9/11 being used as the justification for something that was already an identified need.

The fire business is  unique in many ways. Firefighters of all ranks usually have a very powerful- and sometimes misplaced sense of social justice. Whilst on the fireground they will usually do exactly what they are asked to do, instantly and without question, try to introduce change to procedures, without due communication and consultation and they will immediately put up their guard.

If that change appears to provide a lesser or more costly service to their community their sense of social justice will immediately come to the fore. And if the change is accompanied and justified by political spin the effect will be compounded. We  (former) managers have got to recognise this as the price to pay for the instant  response on the fireground.

The powerful sense of justice often cuts across and undermines the management structure.From the outside its hard to understand why a Chief Officer, who embarks on a new project, cannot make a policy decision and expect all staff to quietly do their duty and implement it loyally and diligently. In industry the dissentors would be disciplined. In the fire service we need to understand the special nature of the people who work for us and the best way of winning their support.  And I'm afraid we are losing touch with many old timers who understood how the job ticked. Modernise if you will, sack the dissentors, but dont expect the teamwork, camaraderie and selfless devotion to duty when the chips are down.


Mobile data is potentially a wonderful thing and has the potential to make firefighting much safer and more effective. Please everybody do what you can to help it to develop and flourish.

[Enry]

Hello Kurnal,
 Thank for your contribution in Data To Cabs, your comments are very well received. And it is reassuring to feel the passion of those that have dedicated themselves  to serving / supporting our much needed Emergency Services, in which so many are doing a sterling job.
However you did state and I quote” The fire business is unique in many ways. Firefighters of all ranks usually have a very powerful- and sometimes misplaced sense of social justice. Whilst on the fireground they will usually do exactly what they are asked to do, instantly and without question, try to introduce change to procedures, without due communication and consultation and they will immediately put up their guard.
If that change appears to provide a lesser or more costly service to their community their sense of social justice will immediately come to the fore. And if the change is accompanied and justified by political spin the effect will be compounded. We (former) managers have got to recognise this as the price to pay for the instant response on the fireground.”—end of quote.

 Very sadly, the Emperor may proudly wear his new suit of invisible cloths, and ignores what he sees in the mirror. If anyone points out to him that he is really in the NUDE, will he listen and cover himself up, or will he blatantly ignore them and keep prancing about in the NUDE. ??

 Some matters can bring the Brigade into a very uncomfortable position, and from the perspective of the general public may even appear corrupt.  
As an example :
In 2003/2004 In South Wales Brigade, we had a manager appointed to care for the Data to Cabs development within our Brigade.
On a number of occasions the person managing the Data To Cabs roll, has been asked to organize the collating of Data to include 2 specific areas. (1) Assets that a company especially needs us to protect. (2) Hazardous substances or conditions   --  Unfortanely, He kept stating that he can’t ask Ops to include that Data, because the Operations Managers don’t know what information they want on their Data to Cabs system.
Since his role has changed to Managing the RMAPS initiative.  There have been various meetings between departments within the Brigade and RMAPS to advise and steer the private company to collect the Data itemised in (1), and (2) above.  
So in a nut shell it appears that a private company were given the green light and clear indication of what data they need to collect. However Brigade personnel  left in the dark.. – Also the Data To Cabs project is now called “The ?? Initiative”
Which system should we really be promoting if we have the interest of the public and commercial sectors s at the front of our minds?  I wish all things were clear and transparent.
Cheers all
Enry

[kurnal]

Enry
I don't think its fair to discuss an issue in such a way that an individual person or even Brigade  can be identified. But whilst there clearly is a communication breakdown here, there is another point of view.

What would you do if you were appointed project officer ( and you have no choice in the matter) for a major IT project which required the co-ordination of the gathering and presentation of data with the delivery of hardware and installation of equipment on stations and appliances? And the project plan, over which you had little input because that was between the chief and the procurement department, gave you tight deadlines which if you failed to meet them would result in financial penalty. The conract is signed, deadlines set and now rightly or wrongly you have to make it work. No choice, no ifs or buts. You start by requesting resources but are told these must be met inside existing budgets and workloads. This is wrong and poor project planning at proccurement stage but you are stuck with it.
To collect the data you need the help of operational crews and because its a culture change it will need a fair bit of selling and telling. And the clock is ticking.  

In a small brigade of say 30 stations this could involve consultation with the rep body and  about 80 visits to watches to sell, tell, issue data collection guide lines and risk information forms. All in existing budgets and workloads. The stations pick up the work, some with great enthusuasm, some disinterested. The divisions all want to put their own agenda forward and progress is patchy. After a lot of effort and  heartache you cannot provide the volume of quality data acceptable to meet the deadlines. The data comes in but there are thousands of errors and problems in it.  You are called to crisis meetings, given minimal additional support and realise the only way to get the data sorted is to burn the midnight oil. Theres no time to communicate, to visit stations, see the family, for recreation or leisure.

Then you look for support outside and you find an enthusiastic private company who is happy to take some workload off your hands and the cost is less than the penalties for running late. You persuade the chief to sign a contract and away they go. A number of your own staff are alienated by this privatisation and a number are actually hostile to the whole idea. The use of a company brings in a range of additional problems. But it may the only way of getting the job done. Because the original budget was pre-set you have to find a way of financing their work, perhaps by offering some chargeable benefit to the community.

Eventually the project is completed, and the benefits to the service and community  greatly outweigh the costs and difficulties.


Yes I have been there- and my project has now run sucessfully for 11 years.

In any other government department the IT project would run late and grossly over budget. But IT projects in the fire service tend to run more or less on time and in budget , only because of the culture of our very special staff.  When planning something cutting edge its inevitable that some unforseen problems and difficulties will arise. We dont plan things very well- but then we tend to pull out all the stops to make it work.

Just like we dont plan fires ...........