Recording a FRA

[Reg]

Absolutely TW, I fully agree with Kurnal's summation.  And JP and team know exactly what goes on out in the real world, and they have never been mistaken, and the RRFSO will be enacted on the 1st of April 2006. oh no they were mistaken about that weren't they. Oh and they listen and take on the views of professionals in the field.

As for no additional burden - there should be no additional burden as a result of the RRFSO as  the business community should have been doing FRA since 1999, 1997, 1974??

[Ken Taylor]

The Government approach when the MHSW Regs were being introduced (1992) and required risk assessment and a competent person was much the same - but there was some guidance from the HSE. The result might be summarised as a mixture of some good RAs, some poor, some over-complicated, many late, many non-existent and a lot of unread paperwork in files.

[kurnal]

You are right Ken but I thought there may be a difference this time.

My memory of the history of the management regs, and especially the low key launch of the fire precautions workplace regs in 97 and then again in 99 was that the government was being directed by europe to do something and did so fairly reluctantly, feeling that what we had was ok and not really wanting to change things. The HSE (HSC) as an independent body were able to apply a much more positive direction though. and apply a broad base of leadership through all HSC members- government reps, CBI, Unions etc .

This time the change is mainly directed from within, though there is some rationalisation to aid compliance with the EU directive. So I thought the Govt might drive things forward with a little more impetus. But it appears this is not to be the case and as the enforcement will be by the fire authorities, puppets of the ODPM, there will be no independent champion to influence and improve standards.

So I think the RRO will be another damp squib and whilst we anoraks may argue long and hard about risk assessment formats, the meaning of significant hazards, suitable and sufficient etc  we may as well save our breath because the launch and enforcement is going to be very low key.

I predict that without robust enforcement of the new order ( and I see few signs of this anywhere)  current standards will decline for 5 years until insurance companies and civil claims take effect.

[Reg]

Kurnal

Whilst I totally agree with majority your post, one point I must take issue with is "fire authorities, puppets of the ODPM"  I hardly think so.  Constrained, restricted, agravated, frustrated etc etc maybe - but puppet no.

[kurnal]

Reg
I speak in terms of a collective leadership, certainly not referring to any individual or tier of management within any authority. I am only too familiar with the constraints, aggravations and frustrations felt by many. But I suggest that on  past record  the collective leadership of the fire authorities will either collude with the softly softly approach or choose to remain silent rather than voice its opposition to its paymaster.
And that is how I read the message coming from the current round of RRO seminars.
From speaking to colleagues I do not appear to be alone in forming this view.

[Big A]

I have certainly got the impression from ODPM that they expect FRSs to do plenty of 'informing and educating' and use enforcement as a last resort.

[Reg]

From a personal point of view I would advocate "inform and educate, audit and enforce when necessary, prosecute as a last resort.  Is that out of step with other authorities?

[Big A]

From a personal point of view I would advocate "inform and educate, audit and enforce when necessary, prosecute as a last resort.  Is that out of step with other authorities?

No Reg, but I presume that is what some people mean by 'softly, softly'

[kurnal]

Big A
I have nothing but support for fire authorities in taking the "inform and educate, audit and enforce when necessary, prosecute as a last resort" line in enforcement- that is how it should be and is entirely in accordance with the enforcement concordat and enforcement management model.

The softly softly approach I am objecting to is over the launch of the new order. In my opinion the launch of the new order should be high profile because statistics show that about 60% of employers have still not implemented the 97 Regs - after 9 years.
So unless they give the launch a bit of a push this time  then in another 9 years around 40% of existing employers and 60% of other responsible persons will still not have implemented it, and probably around 300 persons will have died in fires as a result ( figures all by projection of current statistics) .

The launch is an opportunity to make an impact on commercial fire safety. The change is happening- why not make the most of the opportunity to educate and improve standards. TV, newspaper, targeted advertising, all would help.

The current round of seminars appear to take a very softly softly approach, attract the converted and then   give the impression that the whole risk assessment process is so simple you could give the office junior the guidance document  and they would have no problems with it.

In summary its so simple that its taken the great, the good and the ODPM around 3 years to produce the guidance and its still not even ready in draft.

[Ashley Wood]

I attended a seminar given by the BRE at the Firex south exhibition. It was said there that from June there shall be TV, Radio and newspaper advertisements and articles to highlight awareness to the FSO. Also, there shall be a letter going to every business informing them of there obligations under the new FSO. This sounds to me like a positive step. Lets see if it happens!

Ashley Wood

[Ken Taylor]

Perhaps the ODPM have been visiting this forum?

[Reg]

The publicity proposals proffered by the BRE at Firex were similar to those at the CFOA training in manchester so we can only hope that it is true.  

Talking of Firex: did anyone else find the idea of the St Johns Ambulance giving a  presentation on the Fire Safety Order a bit surreal?!?!?!?!

Sorry must go and finish my powerpoint on emergency fitting of a pulmonary chest drain.....................

[jasper]

lol reg

[Big A]

Kurnal,

  It's one of the ironies of the RRO that it's been made using the provisions of an Act specifically designed to speed up the process.


=)