instruction to fire officers

[PhilB]

Collin Collin your course concentrates on PAS79 only can we agree on that?

My humble point is that FRS IOs need to see the wider picture.

[Tom Sutton]

When the new legislation comes into force and if I was an enforcement officer would I need to conduct a full FRA and compare it against the one produced by the responsible person to ensure the standards meet the current guidance and legislation?

[PhilB]

No of course not, but to carry out your role you need to know what constitues a suitable & sufficient risk assessment and how to audit it.
So I think IOs should attend a course that looks at a variety of risk assessments rather than just one framework.

[Tom Sutton]

Phil I do not have a roll just an interested onlooker. Surely one national framework instead of a variety of risk assessments formats would be far less complicated.

[PhilB]

Yes I agree, I just don't agree that PAS79 is the answer. There are better frameworks out there. Perhaps ODPM should have provided a national framework to aid consistency but they didn't.

You can appreciate why Mr Toddd saw a gap in the market and produced PAS79.

[Tom Sutton]

I have no knowledge of PAS79 and at a £100 a time I will not be finding out. It is a pity pressure is not being applied to the ODPM by FRS,s and other fire safety profesionals even if they use PAS79 and modify it to meet all critics.

[PhilB]

Well TW I personally think you are right to save your money..£100 to use a template!!!! I will provide you (and any one else who needs one) with a template free of charge. It has been audited time and time again by competent persons and it has been deemed to provide a suitable and sufficient assessment in line with ACOP for MHSW Regs...contact me for further details.

Alternatively join Colllins fan club.......and hang the expense! Unfortunately the use of my template will not get you on the IFE register of approved risk assessors...to do that you have to submit risk assessments for approval by a panel......spookily enough Mr Todd is on that panel...and they only recognise one framework....PAS79.....no conflict of interest there obviously...hey ho!!

[Ken Taylor]

PhilB,

As one who has also been lamenting the failure of Government to provide an adequate description of what a fire risk assessment should look like, I should be most intertested to see your free template.

Is it time for the Home Office and the HSE to revise or issue a supplement to 'Fire Safety: An Employers Guide' with reference to the RRO and an example assessment template?

[PhilB]

No problem Ken send me an e-mail and I will reply with attachments. What may be of more use to FRS IOs is a template for auditing risk assessments. I can supply one of these too if required.

Yes I think new guidance on RA is needed, I know the proposed new guides go into risk assessment, but I think a nationally acceptable template should be made available to assist responsible persons and enforcing authorities.

[Tom Sutton]

Phil I have no wish to be on any register I hung up my clip board many moons ago. I am familiar with most fire safety matters except fire risk assessment which was being introduced as I bowed out and I would like an understanding of the subject for my website.

 It looks like the government is making a hash of it as they did in my day.

I will email you for those formats .

[colin todd]

No, Phillip, you still have it the wrong way round. The course is generic and it came first. PAS 79 came later , and is based on the course notes. Its approach was subject to comment by CFOA and many other interested parties, knowledgable on fire risk assessment. It is not a template, as you well know, so why mislead people? It is an approach to carrying out a fire risk assessment. The template given is an example of one that is suitable. It is not even a recomendation that the example be used. If you take the trouble to read it properly you will find that the template is not even part of the recommendations of PAS 79, as it is in an informative annex. Further inaccuracies, not uncommon in your postings on this subject, include the fact that I did not recognize a gap in the market, and to the extent there was one, it would suit consultants very nicely if you think about it. Others recognized it and asked us to write the PAS, which we were prepared to do to assist the fire safety community. Next inaccurate information promulgated by you is that to get on the IFE Register you have to do FRAs in accordance with PAS 79. Ask all the people on the register,  few of whom have used PAS 79. If someone's template cannot be used by people applying to go on the Register, it can only be because it is a useless template. I not only serve on the ''Panel'' , but have just been appointed to chair the Professional Group (to give it its correect title). If you want to send me a congratulations card, the address is on our website. Could I suggest you withdraw the conflict of interest allegation and the incorrect alleagtion in relation to the Professional Group's requirements re PAS 79 to save me the trouble of passing your scurrilous allegations on to the IFE.

[PhilB]

No scurrilous allegations Collin and my I suggest you use a spell checker for the rest of your post.

I have made no false defamatory comments. Unlike you previously have.  Answer me these questions please

1) How many risk assessments completed to the PAS 79 format would someone have to submit to get on IFE Register?
2) How many if they used another suitable framework?
3) Would you be part of that decision making process?
4) Do you profit personally from everyone who choses to use PAS 79 as their framework?

Over to you Mr Todd...Oh and so nice to know you produced PAS79 to assist the fire community...very noble...like me then you will be offering copies of your framework free to all.

[colin todd]

1. and 2. The answer is the same, regardless. (I will use spell checker when you learn to spell the word licence (the noun) as opposed to license (the verb) -see your other posts.) The format used for a template has no bearing whatsoever on the number of examples required. So if you are trying to make a point of some sort, a) I cannot imagine for the life of me what the point is, and b) you have yet another hole in your foot.
3. I am not clear as to the decision process you are talking about.  If you mean the decision process as to whether someone is registered or not, the decision is taken by a randomly selected group of 3 people from the Group (some of which are your good friends the SFSOs, or similar, about whom you have made your views entirely clear in the past). The membership of the Group has been widely publicised. Sometimes I am selected to be one of the 3, sometimes I am not, in which case I would have no part in the decision making process.
4. No I dont. What a curious question.

Yes, the framework is indeed free to all who purchase PAS 79, thereby paying BSI, much as one would for any publication. Moreover, the inspecting officers of one fire authority like the EXAMPLE template so much that they want to issue it free to all employers within the area of their F&RS. Ourselves and BSI have just given them written permission to do so.

Anthing else you want to know Phillip. Always pleased to advise representatives of other training organizations who so clearly need advice and clarification of so many matters. No charge to you at all.

[PhilB]

Collin

Now you are misleading people...but I will not labour the point. Yes your template is free...to all who spend £100.....nice one! I cannot of course comment on the FRS who have recently adopted your template.....many have adopted mine...who knows who's right?

[colin todd]

Notice you didnt have much to say about the other points, Phillip. I will not labour the point. I think it is clear to you that they were non -points.