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Author Topic: instruction to fire officers  (Read 57713 times)

Offline PhilB

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instruction to fire officers
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2005, 10:49:22 PM »
Oh I have Collin but you never listen...let others decide ..ok?
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Offline colin todd

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« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2005, 10:50:39 PM »
Delighted old chap. Always pleased to be of assistance to you, Phillip.
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Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline johndoe

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instruction to fire officers
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2005, 11:07:05 PM »
I hate to do this but I have to side with Colin I have done this course and PAS 79 is hardly mentioned he does not try to sell it or even say its the only way just a way.
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Offline PhilB

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« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2005, 11:20:45 PM »
Does he show you how to audit other frameworks & methodologies..if so great..but I have been told different, but unlike Colllin I could be wrong!
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Offline johndoe

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« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2005, 11:30:07 PM »
yes but not every type because that would be impossible
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Offline PhilB

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« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2005, 11:33:03 PM »
No it's not!!!!!! and that is what FRS IOs need.....please SFSOs take note! Their inspectors need to be able to determine what constitutes a suitable & sufficient risk assessment...spend wisely!

My open offer to all to supply a template and method of auditing free of charge still stands.
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Offline colin todd

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« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2005, 11:54:39 PM »
Can I have one please. Address as per the website.
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Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2005, 08:59:04 AM »
Sorry Colin, only for competent persons. I must point out that I have nothing personally against PAS79. There was no lead from ODPM and a massive need for some direction. For responsible persons and consultants it may be suitable. For FRS IOs I think PAS79 is of limited use, unless of course Collllin the whole planet choose to use your framework.....but I somehow doubt that.
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Offline Tom Sutton

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« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2005, 10:23:18 AM »
Phil thanks for the RA format and check list and I could see myself conducting an audit using them. I have another one produced by an online fire safety journal which I have some doubts about. So back to my previous point the ODPM should produce a National Format which could be modified if cracks appear and everybody would be singing from the same hymn sheet.

A further point has come to mind, is an enforcing officer auditing a document or the building. If some time later the enforcing officer is before a judge and people have lost their lives. If he asked "was that building safe when you had finished your inspection" can he say yes?
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All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2005, 10:52:48 AM »
I believe both, sometimes the document alone may be audited to see that it contains all the relevant info and appears suitable & sufficient, but the only real way to check compliance is to visit the premises. How far to dig when inspecting will be down to FRS policies.

As for things going wrong later when they have left building...in my opinion there is no longer a problem as responsibility lies with responsible person not the enforcing authority.

Ios could say that the parts of premises audied at the time of inspection appeared satisfactory..but they may not have looked at all of the premises and there is no legal requirement to do so.

Consider a policeman stopping your vehicle and pointing out a defcetive brake light, you promise to get it fixed and drive off. Around the corner you plough into a bus stop killing ten people because you also have defective steering & brakes. Would Mr Plod be held responsible because he didn't check all safety matters when he stopped you..I think not.
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Offline wee brian

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instruction to fire officers
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2005, 11:00:37 AM »
The advantage of pas 79 IS That a client knows what he is paying for.

I can ask some consultant to do me an FRA and have no idea what I will get for my money.

If I ask for a PAS 79 FRA I Know what I am getting and I also know that CFOA were happy with the approach it uses.
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Offline PhilB

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« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2005, 11:49:35 AM »
CFOA also believe significant findings are defects only...according to the draft audit guidance. "The record should include all the identified significant findings and the measures taken to deal with them."  so don't put too much reliance on CFOA Wee Brian.
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Offline Paul

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« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2005, 01:46:31 PM »
Wee B,

If you asked me to carry out a FRA I would provide example work.  So you do know what you are getting.

Anyone who does not know what they are getting before they buy basically deserves what they get in my opinion!!

P
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Offline colin todd

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« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2005, 07:48:19 PM »
I rely on CFOA Philip. And like it or not, you will have to as well, until a Judge tells them they were wrong.
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Chris Houston

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instruction to fire officers
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2005, 07:53:11 PM »
Quote from: PhilB
unless of course Collllin the whole planet choose to use your framework.....but I somehow doubt that.

The document is BSi's, not Colin's.
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