instruction to fire officers

[Chris Houston]

My open offer to all to supply a template and method of auditing free of charge still stands.

I'll accept your offer.

Much appreciated.

[colin todd]

Thank you Christopher. Maybe he will listen to you.

[PhilB]

I have spoken to Colllin today and he has cleared things up for me... I wrongly suggested that to get on IFE register templates submitted according to PAS79 would provide a quicker route to approval.

In fact in order to be approved by IFE quickly....you have to attend and pass an approved course....there is only one approved course...and guess whose it is....answers on a postage stamp!

But as my now dear friend Collin explained that is not his fault and in the future other course may be approved.

To be fair IFE website explains all...I don't think Mr Todddd and I will ever agree but if I mislead anyone I apologise.

Hugs and kisses Collllin xxx

[colin todd]

Close Phillllip, definitely close. But to add to the detail (as I am sure as my new friend you will not mind me doing), it is true that our excellent course on fire risk assessment was approved by the IFE and listed on their website as such for several years, having been observed in its entirety by two members of the IFE, representing their education committee, long before the Register was even conceived. And as I explained, there is not ''may'' about approval of other courses. One is about to be approved, and there are applications from others, who have EXAMINABLE courses. As I glad to see you correctly pointed out, all the relevant info is on the website ( and a new super dooper website  is soon to go live). And as I also mentioned, most people applying to be registered have not done an approved course, but had no difficulty being registered. For those who have been carrying out fire risk assessments for some time (or auditing them as an I/O), the approved course probably does not get them there any faster. But if their experience is less, the approved course provides a fast tracking, as it counts, in effect, as 3 months experience. Can I have my copy of your template now, so that I can, as your new friend, advise you as to whether it is any good (and, as a special favour, tell you if it complies with PAS 79).

[dave bev]

damn, an argument that i'm not involved in!!

lol

dave bev

[colin todd]

Bring the bruvvers out anyway Davey.

[stevew]

Without wishing to stray too far from the original thread of the submittion
I am confused by the following statement from Colin regarding the IFE register.

Colin wrote:
And as I also mentioned, most people applying to be registered have not done an approved course, but had no difficulty being registered. For those who have been carrying out fire risk assessments for some time (or auditing them as an I/O), the approved course probably does not get them there any faster. But if their experience is less, the approved course provides a fast tracking, as it counts, in effect, as 3 months experience.

Do I read into the above that even without the approved course but has a wealth of experience over many years as an I/O plus 6 years as a fire risk assessor in a respected fire consultancy an applicant should have no difficulty in being registered?


Steve

[johndoe]

you can apply to be auditor and or assessor but your assessments must pass the scrunity of the commitee your previous history is taken into account.

[colin todd]

Not 6 years Steve, 6 months. The approved course(s) provide a slighter faster route sometimes, for those with less experience since, in effect, the IFE count an approved examinable course as substitute for part of the experiecne requirement. The full details are on the IFe website, but if you have more detailed queries do revert and I will try to advise.

[Thomas Brookes]

I have read this article and felt I should add a comment to this, because if an outsider was looking in it seems to be my systems better than yours arguement, which I feel does nothing to give confidence to a prospective client or person needing information on FRA.
Over the last 5 years I have tried numerous different templates and systems and to be honest most are alike in some way. The one I use at the moment is the new PAS79 and the main reason for this is that my local fire officers are aware of it and seem to like the format, the otherside of this is again with any system you can alter this to fit your client or your personal style.

However, and this goes for all systems! They are only as good as the knowledge and skills of the assessor.
I have recently quoted for a fire alarm system for a small conference facillity, based on the recommendations of the local fire and rescue service fire risk manager (as they are now called) and then a Ex Chief Fire Officers Fire Risk Assessment.
Both were talking of a BS5839-1-2002 system  and wanted a LD3 category!. It was not untill I challenged both on which standard they wanted it to BS5839-1 or BS5839-6 as they both made reference to a part 1 system and a part 6 category that they both conceeded that they had to look up fire alarm standards and had very little knowledge of fire alarm systems. To my suprise the fire officer asked me what I thought she should recomend because she was new to the job, and very well versed with BS5839.
Another example was, I was recently fire risk assessing a building for young adults and I asked the sparky what fire alarm he had put in he said BS5839-1-2002 Category L1. Great I could look at his certificate and copy the details down on to my risk assessment and tick the boxes. Or could I?.  No because when I checked the roof voids and lofts there was not any detection in them even though some of these were 3m high. I informed the building owner and the sparky that it did not comply with British Standards and both agreed to sort it out. Had I not known this is required I may have passed it off and then who would be liable should a fire start in the roof space.

In my humble opinion the fire alarm and detection system is a massively inportant part of the fire risk assessment and very few of the risk assessors or even fire officers actually seem to have any indepth knowledge of these systems.

On a personal note a few year ago I did a BSI course with Colin and found him very proffessional and not in anyway pressuring anyone on the course to buy his systems or books, To be honest I would have thought that Colin by now does not need the few pounds he makes from the odd few extra sales he gets from people on his courses.

[PhilB]

I have read this article and felt I should add a comment to this, because if an outsider was looking in it seems to be my systems better than yours arguement, which I feel does nothing to give confidence to a prospective client or person needing information on FRA.
Over the last 5 years I have tried numerous different templates and systems and to be honest most are alike in some way. The one I use at the moment is the new PAS79 and the main reason for this is that my local fire officers are aware of it and seem to like the format, the otherside of this is again with any system you can alter this to fit your client or your personal style.

However, and this goes for all systems! They are only as good as the knowledge and skills of the assessor.

Blimey that was a blast from the past Thomas.

PAS79 is not my favourite document as you are probably aware but it is better than many out there. As you correctly point out any methodolgy is only as good as the person using it.

I would point out that Guidance Note No.1 now recognises that in some complex buildings a fire risk assessment will not be suitable and sufficient without the use of plans, another point that Mr Todddd and I had differing view points on.

[Chris Houston]

Someone's been reading the old threads.  Anyway Phil, don't think I ever saw your form.  If the offer still stands, I'd be very happy to see how others do FRAs.  And anyone else if they want to share.  Cheers.

[Midland Retty]

Hi Phil

Would be grateful for a copy too if I may!

[Thomas Brookes]

Me too if possible

[lingmoor]

I did Colin Todds course at the joint training centre in Avonmouth and PAS 79 was banded about. There isn't a form or tick box to be seen in my FRA's but I think I've got  a system that works for me....we are all different