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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => General Interest => Topic started by: Tom W on October 28, 2010, 09:32:09 AM
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Firemen striking on Bonfire Night want £10,000 pay rise and more time off
Firemen will go ahead with a strike on Bonfire Night after talks yesterday collapsed when they demanded a £10,000 pay rise.
The fire crews, who can already expect to pocket up to £50,000 a year after overtime, demanded the cash in exchange for switching to new shift patterns.
Fire Brigades Union papers seen by the Mail show they also asked for a one off £3,000 bribe from the fire brigade which is facing a 25 per cent budget cut.
A fireman
Preparing for battle: Firemen are demanding up to £10,000 more for a change in their shift pattern
And they called for three hours of overtime for every part of an hour they work after hours – meaning they could get three hour’s pay for a minute’s work.
The Fire Brigades Union were only prepared to sign a deal if their terms and conditions were fixed for another 20 years.
The package of proposals, which is being demanded by London crews who will strike on November 5 and 6 was described as ‘absurd’ by one fire brigade official.
A senior Whitehall official said: ‘They are on a different planet. This looks like a deliberate attempt to sabotage the talks by the utterly self serving Fire Brigades Union.’
The union yesterday met three London Fire Brigade negotiators but talks collapsed.
Firemen now work two nine-hour day shifts and then a 15-hour night shift, before taking four days off. The Fire Brigade wants to increase the length of the day shift to 11 hours, with a reduction to a 13-hour night shift.
London Firemen get London weighting of £5,021, which gives them a higher take home pay than a nurse, police constable, Army lieutenant or RAF pilot.
The firemen insisted on an increase in their London lump sum of 10 per cent above inflation over the next five years - when the fire brigade budget is being slashed by 25 per cent.
But union demands also included extra money for working weekends and holidays, a guaranteed ‘uninterrupted’ paid lunch break and five extra days of leave each year.
The FBU denied a formal proposal demanding extra cash had been ‘put on the table’. A spokesman said: ‘All that happened is that such a claim was mooted in an internal FBU document, that was never tabled, along with a large number of other possible negotiating positions.’
But Fire Minister Bob Neill said: ‘The FBU have set out a shopping list of demands that are totally out of touch with the rest of the public sector. I fear the safety of hard working members of the public in London is being put at risk as the FBU look to bolster their pay packets.’
Fire Brigade sources also expressed concern about new evidence of violence and intimidation against strike breakers.
A Facebook page was set up yesterday packed with references to ‘scabs’ and scum’ which piles abuse on contract firefighters who stood during a walkout on Saturday.
A series of messages passed between strikers makes clear the union’s determination to target strike breakers. ‘Let’s finish them off,’ one text read.
Another boasted: ‘Today we smashed their operation to run scab machines out of our stations’ and called for further ‘mass pickets’ and ‘more and longer strikes’.
And amid evidence that tube workers with the RMT union, run by hardliner Bob Crow, have bolstered picket lines against secondary picketing rules, another text sent on the say refers to ‘tube workers solidarity’.
A Fire Brigade source said: ‘There are serious concerns that this sort of intimidation and harassment towards fire crews could undermine their ability to carry on doing the best job for Londoners.’
London fire Commissioner, Ron Dobson said: ‘In this tight financial climate, the demand for a ten thousand pound pay rise was simply unaffordable and a non-starter.
‘It is not a good use of money and taxpayers would have been furious if we had agreed to these demands.’
Im sorry but walking out on bonfire night is just dangerous, I am fast losing sympathy when they seem to have a pretty good deal already.
Its one of the few professions where i think 90% of staff LOVE their job and yet they are pushing for more when so many counties are cutting service.
Do you agree with the best fire brigade in london?
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I dont know how I feel on this one Piglet, I am suspicious of the FBUs motives in this case but I trust the Daily Mail's standards of Journalism?? even less.
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I feel slightly ashamed at posting anything from the daily hate so here is a link from the guardian! http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/27/london-firefighters-strike-negotiations
I haven't been in the fire game as long as a lot of people but the majority of consultants i have come accross from the brigade have had such passion and an inner responsibility for their job and the people they protect which is what makes me think its madness striking on bonfire night.
Their shifts are changing yes and it will mean an inconvenience for a lot of people but when unemployment is high, money is tight and their are so many wanting to get into the F&RS they are on very thin ice
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Obviously there are issues to do with the way the shift change is being introduced, the reaction to the management proposals plus the media isn't doing them many favours, particularly when they home in on the negatives such as the alleged intimidation of the people crewing their pumps, BUT in a time when people in industry are losing their jobs, having hours cut and a drop in wage, it doesn't look good when firefighters are demanding those sort of conditions.
I've spoken to friends outside the job who have little sympathy for the firefighters - mainly because of the reasons already stated.
Changing from 9/15 shifts will cause inconvenience, particularly where people have young children and have to commute but this is driven by the European worktime directive.
I've recently gone back onto shifts after time away. When I left, we worked 10/14 shifts, now we work 12/12's. Yes it's taken some getting used to and my working day, including commuting is nearer 14 hours, but it's twice every 8 days, not that bad really.
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Personally speaking, I think the most negative aspect of this is based on the comments yesterday at the 7/7 enquiry that firecrews refused to enter the tunnels despite a policeman jumping up and down on a live rail to show it was isolated.
Yes, there has to be procedure for these things and it may well have been misreported but the public don't forget these things easily.
Sympathy they most certainly will not have - particularly from those who have already seen huge changes to working practices and wages in other sectors
Regards
Owen
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Before making too many comments about the strikes, I would suggest that we allget to know the whole story first, media coverage of many items isn't the best. When the section 188 notice runs out the London firefighters will have no contract and no job but much worse than that the populace of London, including commuters and tourists as well as those who live there will only have AssetCo fire brigade. A Compnay that has a number of retired London Principal and Senior Officers working for it to secure their future, as oppposed to the firefighters. AssetCo are currently bidding for the whole of the London training including trainee and leadership and development. If this becomes the model for Fire Brigades across the UK then the workforce of all Brigades will become much smaller and perhaps the reactive bit will be done by AssetCo and the proactive bit by non operational staff. Very cost effective for each County Council and Metropolitan Authority to buy in services and not have a work force, saves on pensions as well. The firefighters are trying to save their jobs for the next 40 years and trying to secure the populace of London an efficient fire brigade, not one where you have to have palques on the wall for someone to come to you.
As regards the 7/7 stuff, the firefighters were obeying orders from the Principal Officers in charge and told not to enter because of the threat of secondary devices and no knowledege that the current waactually completely switched off. The media reports tell you this if you read them but no doubt when the whole thing is completed in 2011 we will all know all the answers.
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Smell the management timing anyone ???
davo
ps anyone compared the shifts against the HSE fatigue factor model?
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Where do I start on this one? Firstly the underlying reason behind the strike is the removal of pumps and jobs. The LFB aren't coming out and admitting it but its logical that pumps be removed at nights and weekends from the quieter stations which will save a lot of money without adding much to the risk. The FBU obviously oppose this hence the resistance to the 2 X 12 hour shifts. In current economic times I don't think its justifiable to keep those pumps on the run when they're largely doing nothing (nights and weekends) and the service could be streamlined and more effectively delivered by 2 X 12 hours. I believe the FBU will get more out of this situation if they sit and have meaningful talks with the brigade over savings rather than sabre rattling and putting peoples lives at risk; other services will have to endure cuts and I really fear for the organisation if the section 188 notice comes to fruition.
The Asset Co. cover is made up mainly of students from Manchester who have had two weeks training. At a house fire at the weekend it took them 20 minutes to attend then a further 25 minutes to get water on to the hydrant, after having laid hose out the wrong way, etc. The BA crews withdrew after a few minutes because of the 'conditions'. To say they were effective is a blatant lie. They were subject to a lot of abuse at the scene and were extremely upset - I wonder how many will turn up for work on Monday?
You'll ask how I know this - its because I had a long chat with someone who was involved in the incident.
Lastly the 7/7 scenario also distresses me, as a firefighter I expected to face some hazards in my career and have been to a number of terrorist incidents. Secondary devices are always a possibility but to have a blanket ban on approaching until the scene has been confirmed safe from secondaries is wrong in my opinion - the responders should be trained and be able to make judgements on the risk. Procedures such as deploying the minimum numbers of personnel in the hazard zone and 'snatch rescue' should be utilised along with strong command to evacuate as many victims as possible until the all clear has been given.
lastly I'm going to join the two scenarios together - if the FBU don't sensibly talk to the brigades about savings we'll end up with a fire service that lacks experience and staffed by fire fighters who won't take risks as they'll all be stood outside because its too dangerous. Anybody can pour water on a fire from outside but its only the well trained and dedicated that are prepared to enter buildings and take appropriate risks to safely and effectively fight a fire! I'm afraid there's arrogance and bloody mindedness on both sides that may make this scenario a reality.
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I couldn't agree more, Golden. It requires both sides to look at the other side's point of view for a positive outcome to result from this. If both sides examine the situation from all angles then perhaps they wouldn't be on opposing sides any more, perhaps they could see a joint way out to a better future. Sadly, as usual, I doubt it will happen.
Stu
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The respect of the general public is what is really at stake.....the demands are selfish. The public pay the salaries, the public are losing their jobs over high local authority spending. The FBU are being unreasonable... It is beyond a joke.
The taxpayer certainly does not get anything like value for money from the £2 billion spent annually on the fire service, with a fortune wasted on inefficient use of staff.
Firefighters have to work only 142 shifts a year, made up of 71 night shifts and 71 day shifts, allowing them plenty of time to hold down second jobs. Yet, even with these limited hours, their pay is well above the public sector average.
Nationwide, the basic salary for a trained firefighter is £28,200 (excluding overtime), rising to £33,200 in London, significantly above the average earnings in the capital for police officers and nurses.
With overtime, that figure will be increased to anything between £40,000 and £50,000. Moreover, a watch manager in charge of up to 12 firefighters is paid around £40,000 a year before overtime.
On top of this, most current firefighters are entitled to an excellent pension after 30 years of service once they have reached the age of 50, though, due to a Government reform of 2006, new recruits will have to complete 40 years’ service before they will be able to receive their pension.
Despite the protestations of the FBU, firefighting is seen as one of the best jobs in the ¬country. That is why there is no shortage of new recruits, with at least 27 applicants for every vacancy.
Nor do many firefighters leave before taking their pensions. Last year in London, just 15 employees, less than 0.3 per cent of the entire workforce, quit their jobs, a level of ¬stability unheard of in any other occupation.
The FBU might have exploited public sentimentality to protect their empire, but the reality is we no longer need this vast standing army of well-paid ¬professionals who, because of the nature of their work and shift patterns, spend so much time hanging round their stations or doing other jobs.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1324092/Fire-Brigades-Union-defends-jaw-dropping-perks-gross-inefficiencies.html?ito=feeds-newsxml#ixzz13jAkuFo5
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Well said Jim
I think its not as bad as they are making out, there will be a big(ish) shift change for them but they are on a good wage and they have a job!!
Oh and as for getting paid overtime I know a lot of people that do overtime EVERYDAY for nothing becuase they know that if they don't they won't have a job.
Its that kind of world unfortunately, like it or lump it and walk.
If they want £50k a year I imagine there is 10 people for each fire fighter that would do their job for £25k, thats what it boils down too
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I have little sympathy for the LFB firefighters on stike and I doubt the public have either.
The planned strike on bonfire night is a cynical and dangerous move by the FBU, who are in my view seriously losing the plot, and seriously losing credibility on this.
The strikes come at a time where everyone is facing hardships, job losses or changes to their working practices.
Strike action of this nature will have a negative impact on public sympathy for London Fire Brigade, and whether we like it or not reform has and will continue to effect the Fire Brigade.
Why should they cry out for wage rises when people in other sectors are subjected to pay freezes, pay cuts, or job losses.
Its not often I get political, but this strike action has angered me. Just what on earth do the FBU hope to gain?
The message from me is "Be grateful you have a job "
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Just to say don't believe all you read in the mail - or the statistics spouted by some brigades either!
Just to put a few things right in the previous posts. The strikes are not about wage demands its about changes in conditions - i.e. the change to 12/12 shifts which may lead to pumps being removed and loss of posts (not redundancies probably as there's about to be a mass exodus following shift changes in the late 70s).
The figure of £33,200 includes London weighting that most public sector workers in London are entitled to, most police officers in London will earn more than a fire fighter; also it does take about two years to become fully trained. The pension comes after deductions of 11% from the wages for 30 years - if the money had been invested from the early years it would be a nice pot of money to pay out but unfortunately this was seen as revenue by the local authorities and spent as it came in. As for second jobs yes a lot do but then again many people could have second jobs if they were prepared to work all night, Christmas and bank holidays etc. - its still a 42 hour week whichever way you dress it up.
I only post to put a few things right; I'm not defending this strike (see my earlier post) but it is important to know the facts rather than repeat DM rhetoric.
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Correct me if I'm wrong here but don't the majority of our trough hoggers at Westminster have second or third or even forth jobs?
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(X)F&RS are from Mars, LFB are from Venus.............
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Jim, I suppose it comes down to what type and style of public authority fire brigade the public actually want. Chatham house executives want a volunteer service that costs nothing, CFO's around the country are deliberately antagonising the FBU as when the firefighters are in dispute it saves them money. That is playing with peoples lives however it is dressed up, it is not all the firefighters fault they are trying to protect themselves, don't we all, and trying to save a public authority fire service for the public. My local statio had 5 appliances 10 years ago, now its one and that covers such a large area that is impossible to calculate the risk to others if they are out,
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Just to say don't believe all you read in the mail - or the statistics spouted by some brigades either!
Just to put a few things right in the previous posts. The strikes are not about wage demands its about changes in conditions - i.e. the change to 12/12 shifts which may lead to pumps being removed and loss of posts (not redundancies probably as there's about to be a mass exodus following shift changes in the late 70s).
The figure of £33,200 includes London weighting that most public sector workers in London are entitled to, most police officers in London will earn more than a fire fighter; also it does take about two years to become fully trained. The pension comes after deductions of 11% from the wages for 30 years - if the money had been invested from the early years it would be a nice pot of money to pay out but unfortunately this was seen as revenue by the local authorities and spent as it came in. As for second jobs yes a lot do but then again many people could have second jobs if they were prepared to work all night, Christmas and bank holidays etc. - its still a 42 hour week whichever way you dress it up.
I only post to put a few things right; I'm not defending this strike (see my earlier post) but it is important to know the facts rather than repeat DM rhetoric.
And? so what still doesnt warrant strike action.I dont blame London firefighters i bklame the fbu for this suicidal strike. and for the record firefighters of london get real change in shifts isnt the end of thje world
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And?? If you read the post I was trying to put a reality check to the DM spin I'm not asking you to agree with it but at least read it before commenting.
Yes its down to the London FBU, I think I mentioned that in an earlier post. There's also a certain local politician who thinks he's the new maggie prodding the fire fighters at every opportunity - I've heard him say what he thinks of firefighters and the FBU and those views aren't in support of LFB becoming a 'World class fire brigade'.
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I like the sound of this politician-who is he? I am having a birthday party next week and I would like to invite him.
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Colin - I think you'll have heard of him but maybe just waiting for an introduction? He only thinks he's maggie - his handbag isn't actually made of iron!
Rumour on the street last night was that talks are being held today and that the LFB are going to offer a 10/14 compromise and withdraw the 188 notices. If this were true (which I don't believe) it would be a huge climb down for the LFB, the only way this would happen is if the Asset Co. fire brigade can't deliver the 27 crews on Monday as many are disillusioned after last week. The implications of a no-show by the private brigade on Monday would be huge and a few ex-brigade senior officers who have so far kept out of the limelight will be shown up as frauds and hopefully told to pack their bags.
My money is on the LFB telling the FBU that they're going to use the non-FBU members to crew fire engines which will really stoke the flames - and put a lot of people on Colin Todd's Christmas card list!
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In my humble opinion all this is just a tragedy for the great majority of good guys and girls in the LFB who are being led by a few politically motivated hot heads who stir up a melting pot of ill feeling at their conferences and use sledgehammer tactics which are calculated more for there political impact rather than achieving their declared aims. Thats not to say that the employers are without blame here either- far from it. Many old grudges being revisited here.
As for the shift change- obviously people get used to working a certain way and none of us likes change for changes sake, which if you look at many other brigades who have gone through this, is all it is. But can you imagine the outcry from the trade union movement in any sector if the employer was to propose changing from 12 hour shifts to 15 hour shifts? (Personally I think 12 hour shifts are too long for anybody in any field)
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I agree with kurnal this is a tragedy in the making. There appears to be too much political axe grinding and very little regard for the job that needs to be done.
Unfortunately the government (not just the politicians) seem to want revenge for the strikes and to run the Fire Service as a business which they understand(?) and not as a service which they don't. The unions, on the other hand, seem to want to be seen as the power house that defeats the governemnt and management.
The whole thing is a receipe for disaster with the actual job of the fire service and the public as the main victims.
Although I enjoyed my career and believed it was the best job in the world, I'm soory to say I'm glad I am out of it.
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Golden, Christmas is for business colleagues, pesonal friends come to my birthday party next Saturday.
Kurnal, my employer has changed my working hours such that I now start earlier in the morning and finish earlier at night. I wonder if I could join the FBU and have them fight for me. I have to admit that my new working practices were partly driven my medical advice that I must begin to have cooked breakfasts and the local hotel stops serving these at 9am, nevertheless the early rises are making be tired and grumpy, so I want to negotiate with the management to keep to my old fashioned practices even though consultants such as Peakland howsyerfatherwatsit have been adopting them for years.
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Noted Colin. You have always been grumpy though, dont blame the medical advice. I am sure the FBU would welcome you with open arms. I have always thought of you as the archetypal proletariot dictator and your employer as the unacceptable face of capitalism.
I think my invitation to your party must have been delayed in the post, sorry if I am unable to make it but lets face it you have had more practice at running birthday parties than most of us.
Yes probably like you I am no stranger to 7 day weeks, never have a single days holiday completely free of work and burning midnight oil nearly every day.
But as a huge compensation its my decision to do it, nobody is pulling my strings for purely political reasons. And if I went on strike the only person who would take any notice would be my wife. Then I would have to start tackling the long list of DIY jobs I have been avoiding for years.
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Kurnal, Alas you were on the B list for invitations, and too many people on the A list, such a Galleon, were able to come. Every single one of my friends in LFEPA are coming though, along with a number of people from my second job (on which I pay tax, just in case the HRMC are reading this, and indeed accidentally overpaid this year).
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Perhaps people need to watch the comments made by the AC Dave Brown where he states that when they are issued with new contarcts and the firefighters do not sign them, the firefighters are putting themselves out of work. That's not being sacked then?
Colin, I take it your friends are not firefighters then.
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What also should be remebered is that those officers who are not on strike and those firefighters have conditions of service that were fought for by FBU members in the past. They are only there now with the sacrifices of others. Even those at the top of the tree enjoyed and will continue to enjoy through there long retirement through conditions that the FBU got for them.
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Unfortunately the government (not just the politicians) seem to want revenge for the strikes and to run the Fire Service as a business
True, but it was the previous Labour government who sought revenge and wanted Brigades to be run as corporate machines.
The FBU's latest strike action will achieve absolutely nothing, it will only serve to damage public opinion of the brigade, and will garner little public sympathy for firefighters as a whole. It is, for my money nothing less than political suicide - ludicrous!
Resentment towards fire crews is growing not just in London but in other parts of the country as a result of the action.
I can see membership of the FBU significantly drop after this latest round of strikes - they will be leaving in their droves.
Some of my colleagues now call the FBU "the new NUM", hailing Mr Wrack as the "new Arthur Scargill". Says it all to me.
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Yes, very true and look at the mines now. That is it in a nutshell, break the union and no more public authority fire brigades. Not just LFB new contracts but the rest of the UK to. The CFO's are champing at the bit waiting to take each Brigade apart one by one. EFRS had an agreement with their CFO who promptly broke it and then said he din't care as he was saving £10K a day and that was all he was interested in. Forget all the stuff about public sympathy, the CFO's want to break it and start again.
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Many services have undergone shift changes .. new start/finish times which do cause some disruption but like everything, aren't the end of the world.
I can understand the anger at the way they are being changed, but to go on strike in this day and age?
Alot of my friends outside the service really have no symapthy. Some of them are literally living week to week, not knowing if they'll have a job at all.
I was working in the motor industry during the last recession when car sales almost stopped. Payroll on a friday became known as 'the 11 o'clock express' .... if you didn't have an envelope attached to your pay packet, you had a job for at least another week. If you did, you took your toolkit home.
It was an awful experience, and I was young with no committments.
We should be grateful that we have a job.
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"True, but it was the previous Labour government who sought revenge and wanted Brigades to be run as corporate machines."
Yes, but it the senior civil servants who pull the strings and have a large say in the appointment of CFOs, and the civil servants are around a lot longer than the party in government.
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Most of the posts on this make reference to public opinion, let us look back to the public opinion during the invasion of Iraq in the quest for weapons of mass destruction. Did the New Labour leeches give a stuff what the public thought?
It matters not a jot, and yes the public do indeed fund our meagre public sector salaries but what they think makes no difference.
For all those who are a wee bit cloudy as to the workings of a trade union movement, the FBU are actually the members all of whom have a democratic vote and not officials with "axes to grind" as someone stated.
This dispute (in my opinion) is the result of some trough hogger looking to sell off the provision of fire cover in London to Asset Co of whom he has close (financial) links with which would follow throughout the rest of the country.
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Yes Mr Angry but its my taxes that are going to pay for your proposed increase wage.
There are a lot of job losses happening, people are scared for their jobs.
LFB want £50k a year plus the income from the second jobs, do they not?
Thats fine, good for them, but I want good cover and good value for money. I know people that would do their job for £25k a year.
So all of a sudden instead of one greedy fire fighter who want the hours he/she choses, I get TWO fire fighters who will do the hours I the employer chose. You get given your hours you do not chose them. So I now have double the cover for the same price and these new ones will do the hours I chose.
As I pay my taxes that makes me the employer.
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"LFB want £50k a year plus the income from the second jobs, do they not?"
Where on earth did you get that from?
As far as I know there is no pay claim in this dispute.
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Firefighters have to work only 142 shifts a year, made up of 71 night shifts and 71 day shifts, allowing them plenty of time to hold down second jobs. Yet, even with these limited hours, their pay is well above the public sector average.
Nationwide, the basic salary for a trained firefighter is £28,200 (excluding overtime), rising to £33,200 in London, significantly above the average earnings in the capital for police officers and nurses.
With overtime, that figure will be increased to anything between £40,000 and £50,000. Moreover, a watch manager in charge of up to 12 firefighters is paid around £40,000 a year before overtime.
It has already been explained in previous posts.
It boils down to if you don't want to do the shifts proposed for the money proposed, don't, there are lots of people who will.
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Ok Piglet, can you direct me to evidence of any requests for this wage increase that your taxes (and mine)are being used to provide as I am unaware of this new development.
You mention lots of job loses. Does this mean that everyone who is in employment should roll over and be treated like doormats accepting any changes to their contractual agreements on a whim without so much as a whimper?
You say LFB want £50k year.....absolute fiction. There is no dispute over pay here.
Ahhh...the old "second job" rhetoric. How many LFB firefighters have secondary jobs? Do you know?Firefighters work 48 hrs over an eight day period which is more than most and they, just like everyone else are entitled to work as many jobs as they so wish without it being anyone elses concern. I dont hear the public outcry at all the other people with second or third jobs ermm, like local councilors or MPs, nurses, doctors etc to name but a few.
You may well know people that say they will do their job for 25k (saving the taxpayer 3k) a year but the question is, are they suitable? A qualified firefighter with say 10 years sevice gets 28K a year, nearly 10k short of that of a police officer with the same service.
You are right piglet when you say we do not chose our working hours, we sign a contractual agreement which sets them out.
As I also pay my taxes am I also the employer?
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Firefighters have to work only 142 shifts a year, made up of 71 night shifts and 71 day shifts, allowing them plenty of time to hold down second jobs. Yet, even with these limited hours, their pay is well above the public sector average.
Nationwide, the basic salary for a trained firefighter is £28,200 (excluding overtime), rising to £33,200 in London, significantly above the average earnings in the capital for police officers and nurses.
With overtime, that figure will be increased to anything between £40,000 and £50,000. Moreover, a watch manager in charge of up to 12 firefighters is paid around £40,000 a year before overtime.
It has already been explained in previous posts.
It boils down to if you don't want to do the shifts proposed for the money proposed, don't, there are lots of people who will.
You may want to have a wee google to update your "facts" on police, fire service and nurses pay.....
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For all those who are a wee bit cloudy as to the workings of a trade union movement, the FBU are actually the members all of whom have a democratic vote and not officials with "axes to grind" as someone stated.
That's the theory Mr Angry but in practice the FBU is actually the officialdom taking advantage of an outdated mandate from the late 70s, (I was on the street then also).
The working of this trade union has nothing to do with improving or maintaining the firefighters lot but of using this campaign and others in the past to have a bash at the management for their own ends.
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I am more inclined to think that it is the other side who have instigated this by the instigation their bullying tactics to meet their own ends.
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This whole dispute has been grossly misreported, and some facts and figures quoted totally innacurate .
The dispute isn't about an increase in pay.
Police officers get paid more that firefighters (it is the case throughout the country)
As far as Im aware London Fire Crews are prepared to accept changes in shift patterns, it is however the way in which LFB has gone about enforcing those changes which has caused anger and ultimately industrial action.
LFB have decided to make changes without consultation and if crews dont sign up to a new contract they will be sacked.
"So what?" I hear you cry.
The dispute is actually about the facility employers have at their to disposal to change employee contracts as they see fit within 90 days.
So the argument is that today this 90 day facility will be used to enforce shift changes ... what will it be used for tomorrow? Will it give London and other fire brigades carte blanche to impose any archaic working practices they like? That is one of the concerns the FBU and its members have.
The other concern is the use of private contractors and private fire services providing front line public services. One private fire cover specialist in particular seems to be growing very quickly, and has a lot of fingers in a lot of pies not just with the fire service, but police and ambulance services too.
The timing of the industrial action is farcical - any form of action with regard to this matter is simply futile and it is plain for all to see.
The whole lot is a putrid mess, and I blame the FBU, as well as the prinicipal officers at LFB who have been equally provocative at times, for that mess.
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Nice to see a principal officer on the picket line though and I wonder how the firefighter with a fractured pelvis is thanks to the Station Manager who drove into him.
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Boris Johnson is the mayor of London & writes a weekly column in the telegraph, thats his prerogative what he does in his time away from being mayor, and i often hear the argument that mp's should be allowed directorships, consultancies, continue practising as lawyers, dentists etc. what they do when not at the commons is there business. Friends of mine who are not connected to the fire service work as doorman on weekends when not at work for there employer, or play sport at a level that lets them be paid for their exertions on a saturday afternoon.
i think the common thread here is that after you have done your weeks work for whoever is your employer you can do what you like in your down time, & i think 42 hours a week is a fair few hours to put in. (granted some of the posters on here put in many mores hours than that for themselves & thats up to them.)The last time i looked it was still a free country with free choices.
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An error from me, it is reported now that the firefigheter has only severe internal bruising.
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Not your fault Jokar I read in the express that he had a fractured pelvis. More sensationalist reporting.
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The other concern is the use of private contractors and private fire services providing front line public services. One private fire cover specialist in particular seems to be growing very quickly, and has a lot of fingers in a lot of pies not just with the fire service, but police and ambulance services too.
You mean Assetco presumably. By the looks of their website I wouldnt be suprised if they were running our fire service police and ambulance service in the UK before too long. They seem to be sneaking in to key elements of all three services. who knows what else they will try and specialise in. All smacks of privatisation somewhere down the line. Robocop? Or am i being cynical.
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The AssetCo firefighters were trained by Lincolnshire F&RS and I presume some of the training was carried out by members of the FBU. I'm surprised that the FBU didn't make more of a fuss about this.
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The AssetCo firefighters were trained by Lincolnshire F&RS and I presume some of the training was carried out by members of the FBU. I'm surprised that the FBU didn't make more of a fuss about this.
I questioned some fbu officials over this very issue to be told that no fbu members were involved in this training, so who then hmmmm....
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Privatisation is nothing new & has been in use in Europe for years, just look at Falck:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falck
So if that is the long term goal there's enough precedent to support it.
Asset Co have bought up several manufacturers and leasers of ambulances, etc over recent years, running the fleet rather than just providing it could be their next natural step.
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But do we want a privatised service? Is there a danger that in the private sector profit comes before anything else?
And where do you draw the line? They supply police cars too, but do we want a private police force?
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Is there a danger that in the private sector profit comes before anything else?
Always.
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I thought they was already private police forces in the Uk. BTP Transport police paid for by the rail companies Habour police paid for by the habour boards MOD police paid for by the MOD.
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Yes there are some private constabularies like the CNC (Nuclear Constabulary) and such like but the vast majority of them are still publicly funded. To be honest a lot of the military police are still branches within the individual force so you still have to apply to the army, RAF etc and not a separate body and should stay that way in my opinion. I would hate it if they turned the likes of GMP, Met Pol etc private as I think some accountability would be lost.
I think there are dangers certainly with private police forces where you could potentially get vigilantism. I've already seen it with private security firms where the security personel think they are gods cops on earth and that the law doesn't apply to them ::) Yes you could get that within your local forces as well but I think its less likely due to the regulations in place and media attention it would bring.
I would imagine that there would be significant implications and concerns if the FRS was privatised as a whole as well? I can't see how that would help the situation as it stands and would seem like change for changes sake? I do hope this gets sorted out soon for all concerned.
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I thought they was already private police forces in the Uk. BTP Transport police paid for by the rail companies Habour police paid for by the habour boards MOD police paid for by the MOD.
As Cat has already stated they aren't "private" police forces as such. They exist due to legislation which specifically requires them to cover a specific area of public safety or crime detection and reduction.
They are acountable to mini police authorities and most if not all are inspected by HM Inspector of Constabulary. There are rules governing how they must be trained, and how they perform. They aren't just a group of people who have donned a uniform and jacket with "police" on the back and automatically think they are police officers.
For the reason Cat sets out I think privatising the emergency services would be very dangerous, profit before service, possible corruption, and a lack of accountability and consistency is what worries me the most. We already have elements of that now, but it would be worse if pushed out to the private sector.
Do we want to see our police, ambos, firefighters, and Coastguards donned in uniforms blazened with sponsors logos? like: "The Metropolitan Fire Brigade: sponsored by Joe Bloggs Supermarkets where baked beans are now only 5p!"
Part of me can't help feel that is the way we are going, and that in 10 years time today's Fire Service, and indeed emergency services will look very different, and not necessarily because of natural progress, or for the best, but because someone will want to truly turn them into corporate businesses rather than public bodies!
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Private F&R Service? Fantastic idea. Will you lot wake up, smell the coffee and modernise - again.
Between taking calls Controls can take the pizza orders and between fires the lorrys can deliver them.
And what about a slogan for the new Fire & Rescue Company?
"Fires can kill but our pizzas are brill".
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Nearly, I love the idea and the slogan. Can I design the uniform for the control operators.
Anyway, fire and rescue services want to do trading against the private sector, so why not go the whole hog and privatise them. Can I be a chief officer cum pizza baker?
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Nearly, I love the idea and the slogan. Can I design the uniform for the control operators.
Anyway, fire and rescue services want to do trading against the private sector, so why not go the whole hog and privatise them. Can I be a chief officer cum pizza baker?
Sorry Colin but in the interest of providing a cheap service value for money I was going to behead my New Fire & Rescue Company and dumb down principal management to a more appropriate and knowledgable level - Station Commander.
As for the post of chief pizza baker you have failed at the first hurdle. I have no idea how to cook a pizza but I have never heard of anybody baking one. I have heard of people making one but never baking. Therefore, consider your application shredded.
I hear KFC are on the look out for chip fryers though.
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Strangely private operated public emergency services I've ever seen have needed to carry 3rd party adverts nor provide pizzas!
There is already 3rd party adverts from private companies on existing public emergency services vehicles via sponsorship & partnership working - you would rarely see this on private service vehicles.
I'm not particularly for privatisation though, just that there are some daft arguments against it here - focus on the real potential drawbacks, not the tabloid urban myths.
It's already happened anyway - the non emergency ambulance service has been privatised for years with NHS Ambulance Trusts just being another bidder at tendering time and quite often not winning. The emergency side is sliding that way with a lot of ambulance trusts already using private and voluntary services most of the year to bolster their resources - yet they don't publicise this and make sure the private company vehicles are so similar to the trust ones that only the trained eye can spot the subtle differences (one private company doing 999 work can only be identified as the only difference from normal NHS motors is that they retained one aspect of the company livery - two green reflective diagonal stripes on the bonnet)
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Well strangely enough I have Anthony...
Can you point out what the daft arguments are? I think most people have been subjective on this (other than the humerous comments about the pizzas)
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God help me folks
Have to admit Toddy's technically correct, the pizza base is baked ::)
davo
slinks away in embarrassment.............. :-[
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The pot is being stirred a little now. Evidently whilst both parties have decided to go to the RAP, the Chair has asked Officers whether they now need the 27 pumps removed to provide the contigency arrangements and to report back on their findings. He always wanted to smash the Brigade and is doing his best to achieve that aim. I wonder what the Officers will decide.
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Bit more for this, the Officers have decide to keep the 27 pumps off the run for a little longer. I wonder what the public think about that, perhaps they do not know. It seems the London Safety Plan is going up in smoke. LFB had a 10 pump fire last evening and wanted to make it fifteen but not enough pumps about. That won't hit the press either. However, some firefighters have now been suspended including a female station manager who received her QFSM from the Queen this week!
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Regarding the suspensions I've heard that a large number of members of staff are under investigation for incidents during and after the strikes. There is a lot of ill feeling in the organisation and once again it seems the protagonists - i.e. the management and FBU officials - will come out smelling of roses - or something in close proximity to a well fed rose anyway. If what Jokar has said is true about certain personnel, and obviously if anything is proven, it will be a sad day to see someone suffer who has always tried to do the best for the community and her colleagues.
As for the whole sorry affair as someone once said - if it looks like s**t and smells like s**t then it probably is s**t.
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dont get me wrong i understand the beef the firefighters and union have with lfb but i just dont see that the strikes will achieve anything and to be honest lfb know that. so i cant see why the union have decided to pursue strike action. its just demonstrated that lfb can still cope with assetco running people over and occassionally putting out fires. this dispute will probably mark the end of the fbu too. total mess.
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The union didnt decide on strike action, it was a democratic decision taken by the members. Strike action is often a last resort and not taken lightly. As for Asset Co coping, I assume that was a toungue and cheek remark.
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I think the point being made is that whilst it's members decided to strike, the FBU had to call a ballot in order for strike action to be taken.
The union would have been better placed IMHO to advise its members to hold back on any strike action because politically strike action in this climate is just a complete no brainer.
No one has come out of it looking particularly rosey, the public is far from impressed I've had derogatory comments from people in the Midlands who were under the impression all fire crews are on strike too - and who could blame them.
As Cleveland mentioned this could spark the end of the FBU in it's current state. It won't dissolve into nothing, but I suspect its membership will dwindle significantly and that it will loose any political clout it had left.
Unfortunately the whole sorry state of affairs has been a very costly and pointless excercise, as much as I support London crews and as much as I understand their concerns, they need to accept that the tide is changing, the employer will get what the employer wants, and its time to bite the bullet and accept that. The way the LFB and particular Mr Coleman the Chair has dealt with the situation has been both provocative, arrogant, and inappropriate, but alas there isn't much you, I or anyone else can do about that particularly during a time when the public at large are facing much tougher challenges than the LFB crews.
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Well said Midland!
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As I've said earlier its been obvious for years what the LFB want to do and need the 12 hour shifts to facilitate this; it would have been much more productive of the FBU to discuss and negotiate rather than taking the 'Just say no' stance.
Before the 2003 strike I had the privilege of sitting with a couple of influential people who were talking about what would happen when the strike was over and how the brigade would use the extra personnel from the new dimensions programme to tempt the FBU into allowing reductions in other areas, plus some of the other issues that would be agreed. They were spot on with their predictions - oh and by the way this was before the FBU ballot result had even been announced!
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Before calling a ballot the fbu officials will have consulted branches...show of hand etc at branch level.
I also dont think anyone has "come out of it" yet as it is far from over and may have national implications, but I suppose only time will tell.
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Absolutely Mr Angry
But did reps at local branch level try to show the troops any alternatives to strike action?
As you can see, not just from the media but also comments on this forum that the strikes have had a negative effect. The public are under the impression its a dispute over pay (which of course it isn't).
So I again question how Mr Wrack felt there was anything to be gained to go ahead with strike action in the current climate rather than advocating alternatives to his members.
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well when I joined this site I obviously didn't have a clue as to who was on here or the cut of their jib...but now this has opened up it has become a lot less murky and in some cases crystal clear
we all have differing views..ok no worries with that but its the crass ignorance of some on here that is truly gobsmacking...piglet...you seem to be quoting straight from the daily mail...50 k?...wtf?...this dispute is NOT about pay so why bring that crap up?
The brigade has threatened to sack the whole workforce if they dont accept different, anti social and anti family shift patterns...bullying in the highest degree. This should not and will not be tolerated in this modern age...its like a mill owner from the 19th century....get down on your knees...you will be given what you get or your sacked!
Some on here are banging on about the 'present climate'...so the banks feck the country up so therefore we all have to timidly accept what the government and employers say no matter what the circumstances are...what lilly livered crass nonesense, some on here will be taking us back to the victorian doff cap yes m'lud times...get a backbone!
The FBU have always said all along...lift the threat of the sackings and the strike action would never have taken place...simple!
for all those carping on about the FBU hierarcy...just take a look at the complete imbecile and selfish lowlife that is Brian Coleman, Fire Authority Chairman...take the time to read up on this toad
http://www.uk-fire.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2437&d=1245264651
I prefer this than the mails version of events...but I would wouldn't I
Tinpot Tory is Guy to blame
By Kevin Maguire 3/11/2010
OUR MAN IN THE CORRIDORS OF POWER
Firefighters should be close to self-combusting over abuse which could be dismissed as laughable if it wasn't so pernicious.
Hailed as heroes when rescuing us from burning buildings, they're denounced as villains for standing up for themselves.
If a London strike goes ahead this Friday, on Bonfire Night, I know who to blame. It isn't the crews who put their lives on the line for £33,000 in one of the world's costliest cities.
The villainous Guy Fawkes in this dispute is Brian Coleman, left, an incendiary Tory.
Friday's walkout could be suspended today if Bungling Brian lifted a threat to sack 6,000 firefighters. Yet instead of meaningful talks about shifts, he pours petrol on the dispute.
I've a piece of advice for this tinpot Thatcher: rubbishing a tight-knit workforce only makes them more determined.
Fat Cat Coleman isn't worth the earnings of one firefighter never mind three.
Bungling Bob's so arrogant he tried to avoid publishing his expenses.
When he was forced to, we discovered why - they were among the highest on the London Assembly.
Claims included a £275 cab bill to attend the fire brigade's annual carol concert.
If the Bonfire Night strike is lit, it must be a final taxi for Coleman.
Get more from Kevin Maguire on his blog at blogs.mirror.co.uk/maguire.
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I am really not quite sure what alternatives you have in mind MR, especially given that for several months they had been taking other action short of strike action in the form of no overtime, acting up and generally all other good will.
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Things like working to rule, including as you already mentioned no overtime, calling in ACAS for mediation sooner, lobbying MPs to raise awareness of the LFEPA's actions against it's employees, better media campaigning to explain cause of unrest to the public, try to involve more of the middle management to add support and momentum to the dispute, calling for a vote of no confidence in the chair and commissioner of LFB etc etc
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Just spotted this, for those who may have missed it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS7ysdhXFfg
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I saw this originally on channel 4 news. He is a horrible man that Brian Coleman!!!
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I rather like him. He seems a nice man. I have never liked The Rack, or for that matter any of his professional henchmen, who are cynical and manipulative.
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The problem is Mr Coleman went on Channel 4 news said he was willing to talk to the FBU at anytime to avoid further action.
The FBU called his bluff and arranged a meeting on camera, at which point Mr Coleman shifted uneasily in his chair and began to hesitate somewhat.
Low and behold the FBU did make it to the hastily agreed meeting, Mr Coleman and his colleagues did not.
Im not siding with anyone, but yet again one can't help feel cynical about politicians, especially when they agree to something then back out at a 100 miles per hour !
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It was that nasty John Snows fault.
Fancy putting the poor antagonists under such pressure and making them agree to talk to each other. Isn't it much better to prolong a war by sticking to firing big guns at each other from behind a barricade.
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I rather like that nice Mr Snow too. I thnk poor Mr Coleman simply had to wait to source a long spoon before supping.........
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http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23912956-all-of-londons-firefighters-will-be-sacked.do
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Piglet it may have something to do with this stance from the London FBU - doesn't sound like they are near agreement to me!
http://www.london.fbu.org.uk/latenews/newspost.php?p=370 (http://www.london.fbu.org.uk/latenews/newspost.php?p=370)