Author Topic: Beds, beds, beds!  (Read 62031 times)

Offline Kaiser

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« Reply #75 on: September 14, 2007, 03:13:53 PM »
Quote from: Chris Houston
Ladies and Gents,

Keep it civalised, don't call each other names.  I've deleted the threads that did so and a couple of short ones in between (otherwise it would read like rubbish) the "scabs" and "idiots" name calling is what I'm talking about.

Purely from a personal advice point of view, your arguments are more likely to win others over if you stick to the facts and avoid the assumptions about what others may or may not have exeperienced in their lifes.
I understand what you are saying Chris, but the fact of the matter is that saying firefighters don't give a jott about finances, or anything else for that matter is absolute rubbish.  My reply had in it some very convincing arguments and had with them, professionally found proof which argued my case for me.  This was evidence which not only backed up my argument, it supported it fully.  I related to very poor comparisons of other trades and pre-historic attitudes in modern times which proved that the person making petty comments about real professionals had no right to do so.  I am most upset that you deleted my reply as it had some major issues which anyone who read it would be extremely hard pushed to argue against if they wanted to retain any credibility on this forum.  I still find the "Firefighters don't give a jott" comment highly offensive as the person making them is no longer in a position to be making this type of comparison.  I stand by my reply to the comments about degrading myself.  I certainly do not feel in any way shape or form whatsoever, that by taking in to account the health and welfare of firefighters and the public affected by the actions of firefighters is degrading.  It shows true professionalism, nothing else.  
I would like to make it clear to the forum that I never called anyone a scab, I did call someone an idiot and whilst I now retract the idiot comment, I would like to state that the person is VERY VERY misinformed and not in a position to make poor judgement about their former colleagues
I feel that if people can just use this forum to provoke conflict yet hide behind the forum's moderators when the conflict comes back to them, then surely the forum is not such an honest and open forum as I had previously believed.

Very disappointed
Kaiser
Malo Mori Quam Foed Ari

Chris Houston

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« Reply #76 on: September 14, 2007, 03:19:10 PM »
Kaiser,

I don't have the time to edit out the name calling bit, and your was not the only post that I objected to.

You are welcome to, and encouraged to, repost your thread, which did contain many points - but without the insults.

As a regular poster, you will hopefull be aware that I am not in the habit of editing things.  Nobody is hiding behind the moderators or asked me to act or edit this thread.

Offline Kaiser

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« Reply #77 on: September 18, 2007, 11:23:34 PM »
looks like that killed this subject doesn't it
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Offline Andy Cole

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« Reply #78 on: September 19, 2007, 10:56:59 PM »
I don't see how anybody who is no longer in the job can criticise those that are! even if they did do the job for many years before! Frankly it's just as well not all Firefighters 'just get another job..... simple' when the going gets a bit tough otherwise where would we be!!

Chris Houston

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« Reply #79 on: September 20, 2007, 06:03:07 PM »
Andy,

In a public discussion forum, everyone is entitled to their opinion, even those who have never even worked for the serivce!

Offline Andy Cole

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« Reply #80 on: September 20, 2007, 06:39:10 PM »
I understand that Chris and I apologise if you thought I was implying otherwise,I was merely expressing my own opinion of their opinion!! :)

Offline Wiz

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« Reply #81 on: September 21, 2007, 01:21:59 PM »
I once heard a chairperson (but he wasn't female) of a meeting say 'that everyone is entitled to their opinion - no matter how stupid it is'!

I'm not inferring the word 'stupid' applies to any of the comments/opinions posted on this thread (to tell you the truth I'm not interested in the subject and can't be bothered to read them all) but I am saying that all opinions are valid.

However, I agree with Chris that if this forum is not to deteriorate into the 'slanging matches' found on other forums, we should be careful not to start name-calling or being overly rude to each other!

Offline G

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« Reply #82 on: September 21, 2007, 02:19:19 PM »
Quote from: Andy Cole
I don't see how anybody who is no longer in the job can criticise those that are! even if they did do the job for many years before! Frankly it's just as well not all Firefighters 'just get another job..... simple' when the going gets a bit tough otherwise where would we be!!
I agree Andy, that of course is unless the person is very bitter and regreting their decision to leave?

Or, find themselves as a recruiting tool for a strike breaking organisation such as the toothless FOA?

All very realistic possibilities.

Offline pugh

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« Reply #83 on: September 30, 2007, 08:29:18 AM »
Here is an extract from the Executive Summary of a report into the effects of sleep deprivaion on firefighters and EMS responders.  This report should be read by all brigade managers when making decisions regarding shift patterns and the availability of beds/rest facilities, but I don't suppose it will be!

"Adequate daily sleep is needed to perform optimally and be healthy. Sleep deprivation is linked with increased errors in tasks requiring alertness, vigilance and quick decision-making. Long work hours often are associated with chronic sleep loss, which may result in decreased ability to think clearly and feelings of depression, stress and irritability. Those effects are not reliably predicted by how fatigued an individual feels, as chronically sleep deprived people frequently do not perceive their lack of sleep as a problem. Chronic sleep loss also is associated with a general increase in health complaints and musculoskeletal problems, higher body weights, a greater risk of obstructive sleep apnea and heightened levels of cardiovascular disease and cancer."

Offline Tom Sutton

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« Reply #84 on: September 30, 2007, 09:39:33 AM »
That says it all you should campaign for the eight hour shift that would resolve it.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline Kaiser

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« Reply #85 on: October 01, 2007, 09:55:10 PM »
Quote from: twsutton
That says it all you should campaign for the eight hour shift that would resolve it.
Once again, a throw away comment that could lead to the implementation of an idiotic shift system where antagonisation of firefighters that have to bear the brunt of it, in no way affects the persons wanting to implement it.

Lets look at how this could work then shall we

8 hour shifts doing annualised hours is only implementable by doing continuous rolling on to the next shift.

e.g.
2 early
2 afternoon
2 night shifts
followed by 2 off

or multiples thereof, yet by doing this system, each firefighter would be working 6 hours in to their so called "1st day off".  In actual fact, the firefighters concerned would never get 2 days off.  This would lead to even higher levels of sleep disruption due to a constantly changing body clock.  If the system increased the number of days on each shift in order to get 2 and 1/2 days off at the end of the working rota, each firefighter would have worked ten days on the trot.  In the private sector where 8 hour shift systems are worked, it is done Monday to Friday with a full weekend off.

How come members that throw these idiotic ideas on to this forum don't admit that they are senior managers who are unaffected by the crazy changes that they are so desperate to implement.  

As for myself, I am not some union flag waving militant bloke who wants to argue with all changes, what I am is an operational Crew Manager who is fed up with stupid changes brought about purely and simply because middle managers are so keen to impress SMT's that they have lost the plot and are dumping on good men and women purely for their own career progression. In addition to this, I actually care about the people I work with, not because some mission statement says so or because the powers that be tell me to, it's because the people I work with are worth it, I wish I could say the same about some of the so called senior managers.

There have been some very good changes brought about by the strike and IRMP's, but the pendulum has swung way to far over to one side, it is time that operational issues, welfare of personnel and sensible management was re-introduced and the pendulum swung a little bit closer to the middle.

I personally feel that there are lots of CFO's and Firemasters out there that are very scared about the safety of their positions.  The ambulance services have all recently been merged, fire controls are being merged, the government have tried to merge police forces and it is only a matter of time before it happens with the fire service.  This would mean that a lot of senior officers would be surplus to requirement and no longer quite as important as they currently are.  In order to elevate their status within the Department for Communities and Local Government who are our lords and masters these days, they come up with crazy things to implement so that they can say
"look at what I've achieved"

Maybe it's time that these managers actually listened to what is being said at ground floor level and then they would get much more support from the people that matter, the firefighters that deal with incidents, carry out home safety assessments, fit smoke alarms and give the fire service, the good name it has always had.
Malo Mori Quam Foed Ari

Offline Kaiser

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« Reply #86 on: October 01, 2007, 09:57:36 PM »
Quote from: twsutton
That says it all you should campaign for the eight hour shift that would resolve it.
Or maybe just not try to desperately fix things that aren't broken and leave the beds where they are
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Offline Dinnertime Dave

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« Reply #87 on: October 02, 2007, 08:18:10 AM »
Quote from: Kaiser
Quote from: twsutton
That says it all you should campaign for the eight hour shift that would resolve it.
Or maybe just not try to desperately fix things that aren't broken and leave the beds where they are
When the beds were removed from my brigade and a shift review undertaken we were the consulted on 3 different shift system two were complete pigs the other kept 2-2-4 system but involved longer day shifts, shorter nights and the removal of the beds.

Yes people hate it, moral is at an all time low, but given the choice would you rather keep 2-2-4 and chairs are as I believe most authorities would want - 8 hour shifts.

Glad to be a day worker.

Offline Kaiser

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« Reply #88 on: October 02, 2007, 10:04:21 AM »
Quote from: Dinnertime Dave
Quote from: Kaiser
Quote from: twsutton
That says it all you should campaign for the eight hour shift that would resolve it.
Or maybe just not try to desperately fix things that aren't broken and leave the beds where they are
When the beds were removed from my brigade and a shift review undertaken we were the consulted on 3 different shift system two were complete pigs the other kept 2-2-4 system but involved longer day shifts, shorter nights and the removal of the beds.

Yes people hate it, moral is at an all time low, but given the choice would you rather keep 2-2-4 and chairs are as I believe most authorities would want - 8 hour shifts.

Glad to be a day worker.
Good point Dave, but explain this to me.  Why is it so absoluetly necessary to remove the beds in the first place.  I work in a brigade where we have no beds and all it has lead to is folks curling up all over the place for a rest.  We don't have these so called resting recliners, just a vindictive CFO.
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Offline Tom Sutton

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« Reply #89 on: October 02, 2007, 10:36:05 AM »
Quote from: Kaiser
Or maybe just not try to desperately fix things that aren't broken and leave the beds where they are
Precisely I joined in 1962 and then we were trying to justify beds as well as billiard tables and bars on stations to no avail so don't bother adopt the above philosophy, makes more sense. Sorry about the wind up.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.