Using non evac lift for evac??

[messy]

I would be interested in the views of others about the following summary of a  proposal re evacuating disabled guests from 2nd & 3rd floor of a 7 storey (three staircases) Hotel. The aim is to reduce the risks posed by manhandling an evac chair down the stairs The plan is:.....

Alarms operate - Able persons evacuate on foot down stairs, whilst disabled proceed to refuge and are joined by member of staff

Fire marshall at reception views the AFD panel of the addressable system and confirms that the detector concerned is not in an area which would be on the escape route or in the lift shaft or motor room. Fire Marshall contacts staff at refuge point to evac disabled person in lift.

If fire detector is on path of escape route or lift shaft/room, order given for alternative route using evac chair

The 2 lifts are about 2 years old and not an evac lifts or FF lifts, but would be fitted with comms.

As I say, this is a summary of the proposals which I have received.

Any views???

[kurnal]

What is the route of the power cables feeding the lifts? And are they on a dedicated circuit? If they run through the fire area or are shared sub circuits with equipment in the fire area  the lift could fail.
Its a good thing to know and to perhaps provide protection to the cables and provide a dedicated supply to the lift to improve resilience. But otherwise it seems a sensible move. And you may consider if there are two fire doors between the fire and the refuge not moving them at all.

[wee brian]

It may be worth looking at the coms used between the staff. Are we talking radios or a dedicated fire telephone?

[jokar]

The guidance documents allow for the use of normal lifts for evacuation with the proviso that there is a managed plan.  I see little wrong with the synopsis you have given providing that the system is tested, that there is a rigorous management plan and training is given to staff.  Evac chairs bring in manual handling and once outside, what do you do with the person in it, plus the training aspect.  Of course wheelchair users should be consulted as many do not want to be taken out of their chair which makes the use of lifts all the more paramount

[Thebeardedyorkshireman]

I have requested guidance from a senior lift tester on the new spec for evac lifts and await his responce for interest only. With regard to the principle I would add the following comments specifically with regard to the AFD.
AFD does not allways pinpoint the source of fire, it detects the products of combustion that present themselves at the location of a detector. Thus in a hotel, the fire source may be some distance from the AFD, particularly if the system is L3. Consider that a lift car in a shaft acts like a piston in an air pump. Thus you could have, say a basement store room not on the escape or circulation routes and thus unprotected delivering combustion product that is sucked into a shaft thus bypassing the detection on route.The detector at the shaft top may be in clean air  and you have a problem.
A potential solution would be to insist on a minimum of L1 AND protect the shaft with VESDA, programmed to return the car to ground, open the doors and switch on the peek-a-boo together with a warning notice to prevent further use.
Just a thought!
Dave

[steve walker]

The guidance documents allow for the use of normal lifts for evacuation with the proviso that there is a managed plan.  ...

Jokar, I am not familiar with these guidance documents. Can you please tell me where I can find this?

[jokar]

The 11 currently 9 guidnace documents issued by DCLG for the Responsible person available as a free download from DCLG website.

[steve walker]

Thanks Jokar, can you tell me where in these guidance documents I can find the guidance about using normal lifts for evacuation?

[val]

What is the route of the power cables feeding the lifts? And are they on a dedicated circuit? If they run through the fire area or are shared sub circuits with equipment in the fire area  the lift could fail.
Its a good thing to know and to perhaps provide protection to the cables and provide a dedicated supply to the lift to improve resilience. But otherwise it seems a sensible move. And you may consider if there are two fire doors between the fire and the refuge not moving them at all.

Kurnal,
And a dead cow could fall out of the sky onto your fishing boat. (did actually happen).

There is reference in the guides to using lifts for evacuation, especially if they are fire fighting lifts. It will come as no surprise that this suggestion found it way into the guides at the suggestion of the CBI stakeholder.

In my opinion, it can sometimes be the lesser of many evils but will need careful managing..(that panacea for not spending money)!

[Ken Taylor]

I would want to suggest that they investigate converting the new lifts to (or near to) evacuation lift standard and that the actual fire location is added as a factor in determining the best method of assisted evacuation.

[kurnal]

My dear Val
You clearly are ready for admission to Dr Wiz care home for the bewildered. Welcome. Matron has a nice warm bed waiting for you. Just make sure you wipe your feet- she doesnt want any cowpats bringing in. Lucky will take your sou'wester and Dr Wiz will move the aquarium for safety. We dont want any more accidents.

Lifts. My point is this. Until now we have had prescriptive application of BS5588 part 8 or nothing at all. This meant for example that you either had dual independent power supplies from seperate sources with automatic changeover- or you did not have a lift considered safe to use in an evacuation.  As you know the new guides now appear offer a little flexibility on this without giving any real new guidance on standards to be applied.  I dont have any major concerns with the use of firefighting lifts- but in many buildings without firefighting lifts there is great pressure post DDA to use standard lifts as part of the evacuation strategy for disabled people.

If considering the use of non part 8 lift for evacuation,  one obvious question is if there are good standards of fire separation in the building, are people at risk if they use a standard lift for evacuation?
The two main issues I would consider are 1- how much fire separation is there- (at least 1 hour - and 2 doors would be my criteria) and 2- is the power likely to fail? Hence my check on where the power is sourced and any protection to the cables- if it is in the adjoining compartment that is on fire with no protection to the power source  I dont recommend using the standard lift.

We cant safely go from a position of insisting on dual independent supplies  pre RRO to no resilience at all  post RRO.

[steve walker]

Its ok jokar found it:

"Lifts
Due to the danger of the power supplies to a
lift being affected by a fire, lifts not specifically
designed as ‘firefighting’ or ‘evacuation’ lifts are
not normally considered acceptable as a means
of escape. However, where a lift and stairway
for a means of escape are incorporated in a
fire-resisting shaft which has a final exit from
it at the access level and the lift has a separate
electrical supply to that of the remainder of the
building, than that lift subject to an agreed fire
risk assessment, may be acceptable as a means
of escape in case of fire."

Page 83 offices and shops guide.

[Ken Taylor]

For 2 storey buildings, a power supply from a separate main or sub-main was acceptable under the BS for an evacuation lift (ie without the need for a secondary supply). In these days of risk assessment and where there is adequate fire separation, conversion to bring an existing lift to a standard along these lines may require little more than some electrical work and alteration to the lift controls.

[nearlythere]

The "final exit from the shaft" might be a bit of a problem with many lifts unless the protected shaft at the access level can include a protected foyer. Can you have a protected foyer? Doubt it.

[Redone]

Joining this one a bit late folks...

Been looking at this for a while for care homes where the majority of residents cannot use the stairs.

To date I've altered our fire procedure on a building by building basis as follows;

To 'consider' using the lift for evacuation the senior on duty must locate by investigation the cause of the alarm within 2 1/2 minutes - guide standard, ensure the fire brigade have been called to any non-false alarm.

Instigate evacuation immediately where required, focus on most mobile/user friendly first, designated records RP maintains PEEPs - target time to clear room above and rooms off affected corridor/compartment is 15 minutes, half door design limit.  This has been proven by drill, filmed, timed for records.

To give the staff confidence, an L1 system has been provided with addressable panels on each floor - quick pick up, minimal travel distance, currently hitting the room involved in about 35 seconds 24/7.  All staff have hands on live fire training annually.

All doors in the sleeping accomodation areas will be self closing within the next three years.

Handheld radios are now used 24/7.

To reduce risk - Non smoking for all occupants, staff or resident.  Projected disposal date for all electrical appliances (seven years old).

The lifts are lobbied on the upper floors with an exit at ground level to open air.  Where we don't have an immediate exit at ground level, we have a lobby with a choice of direction.  However the lifts do not have duel supplies.  My local FA don't have a problem with this, as we have factored in lift failure by training the staff to drop the lift to ground level. Purchasing stair climbers to accomodate lift failure.

Refurbishment of the lifts is ongoing - 2 -3 floors 50K.

Recent price obtained to upgrade lift for 6 floor premise to evac standard 100K...

Rather fit sprinklers...