Exit Signage

[Phillip L]

Gentlemen, Thankyou for your informed replies. I thought that I was the only one that was a little confused at times!

[Jim Creak]

This is exactly the point I make, when the profession accepts any old sign , of any old design made up without reference to Standards it is of no wonder that Joe public is confused. It is quite clear from this forum any old green square is acceptable oh and don't mix them up was the advice given. Well look no further than yourselves.

I have read about an aged couple dying in a hotel fire in the north of England found feet away from a protected escape route. I also read that other evacuees had concerns about escape route direction and location. I was also made aware that the signs used were so called Euro signs that when the design has been tested for comprehension it was not understood by Joe Public as you put it.

The profession on a daily basis accepts this situation, it is a disgrace. In respect to the law,the law is far from prescriptive the guidance to comply has to come from competent people using appropriate technique...Any old arrow any old green picture seems to be your competent advice.

My advice for what its worth is to adopt the Standard. BS 5499 Part 4 2000 ISO 16069.. ISO 7010..a unified way of escape route marking and then Joe public may stand a chance.

[Tom Sutton]

I was also made aware that the signs used were so called Euro signs that when the design has been tested for comprehension it was not understood by Joe Public as you put it.

Has the comprehension test been done for the standards you advocate and what were the results? Also how does all this affect the Safety Signs and Signal regs.

[Jim Creak]

Yes exhaustive testing both comprehension and judgement testing and yes against over 1000 other variant the graphical symbol required to conform to BS5499 and ISO 7010, ISO16069 achieved the highest comprehension credentials. This is how serious the technical committee took this subject.

However as it only acheived some 80% British Standard requires supplementary text to aid comprehension. This too was tested in correct juxtaposition and achieved 100% comprehension under ISO 9186 comprehension testing Standard

Both International and British Standard Technical committee agree that Escape Route Location and directional identification should not be left as a game of pictionary alone.

But hey!! the JOKARS of this forum both Senior and ordinary Members still feel free to  show their ignorance on something as important as basic means of escape provision.

Joe Public are confused and their lives are at risk simply because professionals represented here do not have competence in the subject matter. Even in the 11 guidance documents anything goes as long as you don't mix them...Whatever that means??

Believe it or not the Standard is simple to understand and is totally logical. It is clear methodical and basic common sense just get a copy and then we might all make a good contribution to preventing confusion rather than voicing flippant crap.

[Ken Taylor]

I admit to being a little flippant at times, Jim - but we do seem to be a generally friendly lot here and enjoy a bit of banter at times. Let me, for one, assure you that I have only specified and ordered the BS signs as you advocate. I also remember the debate about the running man symbol and its relevance to the guidance not to run when effecting escape. Not all change is for the better particularly when European conformity is the goal! I was in a community hall a couple of days ago which had just been fitted out with new signage as part of refurbishment. In addition to the differing styles and standards of signs and the incorrect exit boxes we had some signs that conformed with no standard whatsoever - presumably bought from the local stationers. The confusion continues.

[Jim Creak]

Yet again I remark that it is the profession that is to blame for any confusion caused. Not Europe Not Sign Companies Not Salesmen Not Joe Public but the apathy of our approved building inspectors and our beloved enforcement Fire Officer and now the professional contributors to this forum.

Why be flippant when the question asked was quite serious and for which there is a difinitive answer, a technical solution and correct nomenclature, term and definition... Not running Men, Not White Blocks but a "Standardised Graphical Symbol with a known safety meaning."

There has never been any confusion regarding the correct escape route sign either by design nor application...the only confusion caused has been created by your acceptance of signs that do not conform to any technical standardised design on a daily basis.

Look no further to the comments made here and most are happy to accept any old green box with any old symbol and blame it on something else. Well the buck stops with you!! No one else

[kurnal]

Jim
Are we the only European country to have this problem of incompetency and misunderstanding of exit signage ?

So far your whip seems to touch UK consultants,  building control officers, approved inspectors, Fire officers, and from previous postings the Government advisors (who wrote the guides to the Fire Safety order) the HSE (their offical guidance leaflets contain similar advice).

Most Industry catalogues follow a similar line as well- in fact many referring to outdated versions of BS5499 and most offering the sale of a wide spectrum of signs with the minimum of guidance to the end user / purchaser- who is not likely to fork out the £110 for the BS. They are much more likely to ask their question on this normally friendly helpful and sometimes humorous forum. But it is an open bulletin board - a collection of a range of opinions some of which may miss the point, go off at tangents or be just plain wrong.

Please  help us all by offering your answer to the original question. I am sure we would all be the better for it. And it might help to stop the rot.

[jokar]

Jim,

Regardless of your considered opinion of the individuals who share experiences and information on this site, the overriding question still remains.  If we, in your terms the technical people, do not understand the signage, regardless of where anything is written, how do we know that the general public understand and regardless of anything else the signage is for those people to understand, follow and utilise.  With a population now of plus 60 million with different cultures, different ethnic backgrounds, different languages and as taught in some schools a variety of different eduaction standards regardless of how it is thought the signage should be, is any of it recognised by those it is for.

[Richard Earl]

just a quick reply to all i strongly recommend that the information by jim is the best and well founded as the research has been done for many years
he has helped me loads of times with problems and i thank him for that.
if you have problems with signage as jim for recommendations and GOOD companies to help,

i back you all the way jim keep up the good work.

[Ryan]

This is all so confusing; Couldn't they just use a worldwide standard, in which every country uses the same signs... It really does make sense.

[kurnal]

Nobody is doubting Jims good advice. Many of us use his book as a guide, and read the standards he has contributed to (and buy his signs as well.)
And he is rightly frustrated when consultants get it wrong.
But I think the whole  issue goes much wider than this. And it would be interesting to know whether the its just a  British, English or maybe a European problem. I suspect it may  the latter.  
After all the majority of buildings with incorrect signage have never seen a consultant, fire officer or any other enforcement officer. The person responsible has gone out and ordered the signs from a website or a catalogue.

[Jim Creak]

My last point on this subject is that you have all clearly identified a significant risk in the confusion caused by incorrect application of escape route signs. Incidentally it is an offence under the Health and Safety(Safety Signs and Signals)Regulations to use signs of poor design and which employees do not understand.

What are you going to do about it. I suspect nothing.

If you did refer to BS 5499 Part 4 2000, ISO 7010 and ISO 16069 you will find a way to implement a system that is both logical simple and would harmonise WORLD WIDE, not just Europe, the way we communicate safety wayguidance information. It is being implemented world wide even in the USA and Germany as a function of the publication of ISO 7010...it will be the UK that is in a total mess.

Quite clearly anyone that says these signs are confusing has never read the Standard.

For Kurnal benefit the correct answer was given by Fred as the first contribution and was difinitive. Arrows simply point to egress direction not to objects. when you pass one piece of directional information guess what you should be able to confidently predict the location of the next piece of information which will progress you to a place of safety.
 Not exactly rocket science is it!!

[afterburner]

Kurnal, what is the difference between a British problem and an English problem when the question arises from British Standards or European?

[kurnal]

I was just wondering whether the incorrect use of exit sigs and in particular directional arrows was a particular English thing- the attitude to enforcement (Of the Scottish Technical Standards) appears to be a little different in Scotland ( from talking to others at the Fire College)

Been at a redbrick University today and came across every possible combination of signs imaginable- red and green, text only, no signs at all, exit signs fitted on doors that are then wedged open so are read from the wrong side and point in the wrong direction.

I used to think that the use of text to supplement the graphic symbols on an exit sign was a British phenomenon but have also seen similar elsewhere- especially on German signs. Hence the European dimension to the question.

[wee brian]

I've seen similarly non-compliant signs in France.