HMO's

[kurnal]

Midland Retty
I was just pointing out my understanding of the RRO - that aticle 7(3) says that articles 19 (giving of information)  and 21 (training)  impose duties only on responsible persons who are employers. I may have it wrong- would be grateful to hear other opinions especially around the wording of article 13.

[Big A]

Midland Retty
I was just pointing out my understanding of the RRO - that aticle 7(3) says that articles 19 (giving of information)  and 21 (training)  impose duties only on responsible persons who are employers. I may have it wrong- would be grateful to hear other opinions especially around the wording of article 13.

Agreed. Arts 19 & 21 definitely refer to employees and there is nothing in Art 13 that says , or implies, that all relevant persons should be trained to fiight fires.

[Midland Retty]

Midland Retty
I was just pointing out my understanding of the RRO - that aticle 7(3) says that articles 19 (giving of information)  and 21 (training)  impose duties only on responsible persons who are employers. I may have it wrong- would be grateful to hear other opinions especially around the wording of article 13.

No its a fair point Kurnal and I see where you are coming from, it was more really to answer the original question on the thread asking if extinguishers are required as you tend that in most HMO's you dont find them.

[val]

I disagree with one of your statements Midland Retty.
Under the RRO  I dont think the Responsible Person has a duty to train anybody unless they are an employee.

So I dont think that the Responsible Person in a HMO, if he chooses to  provide Fire extinguishers,  has a duty to train the residents in their use.

What if a resident gets injured then as a result of using the wrong type of extinguisher?

So?? (Teenage kids)!

Not everything in this world can be legislated for. Kurnal is quite right when he, (sorry if you're not a he), says that the FSO requires training of employees only.

Personal responsibility comes into play in some situations. Many extinguishers are simple to use and a quick squirt may stop any other people in the HMO being put at risk. Unless the HMO was full of Albanian dyslexics, a notice saying "only use on very small fires" would be good enough for me.

[Wiz]

I disagree with one of your statements Midland Retty.
Under the RRO  I dont think the Responsible Person has a duty to train anybody unless they are an employee.

So I dont think that the Responsible Person in a HMO, if he chooses to  provide Fire extinguishers,  has a duty to train the residents in their use.

What if a resident gets injured then as a result of using the wrong type of extinguisher?

So?? (Teenage kids)!

Not everything in this world can be legislated for. Kurnal is quite right when he, (sorry if you're not a he), says that the FSO requires training of employees only.

Personal responsibility comes into play in some situations. Many extinguishers are simple to use and a quick squirt may stop any other people in the HMO being put at risk. Unless the HMO was full of Albanian dyslexics, a notice saying "only use on very small fires" would be good enough for me.

Val, you say that a notice saying "only use on very small fires" would be good enough for you. Please advise if you feel that following your advice (and based on not being an Albanian dyslexic) would stand up in a court of law using the argument that it was 'good enough for Val of the Firenet Forum'?

[Big A]

What if a resident gets injured then as a result of using the wrong type of extinguisher?

So?? (Teenage kids)!

Not everything in this world can be legislated for. Kurnal is quite right when he, (sorry if you're not a he), says that the FSO requires training of employees only.

Personal responsibility comes into play in some situations. Many extinguishers are simple to use and a quick squirt may stop any other people in the HMO being put at risk. Unless the HMO was full of Albanian dyslexics, a notice saying "only use on very small fires" would be good enough for me.

Val, you say that a notice saying "only use on very small fires" would be good enough for you. Please advise if you feel that following your advice (and based on not being an Albanian dyslexic) would stand up in a court of law using the argument that it was 'good enough for Val of the Firenet Forum'?

I think this is where the word 'reasonable' would come into play.

[kurnal]

Its all about balancing the risks and what is comfortable for one responsible person may not be so for another.

National guidance for HMOs does not recommend fire fighting equipment in common areas if there is a risk of vandalism (BS5588 part 1). If equipment is provided but due to vandalism does not work when needed, it will place the user at even greater risk than if it was not provided at all. Many Responsible persons will be comfortable with this advice.

However some will still prefer to provide equipment and if an untrained person was injured trying to use it the court would make a decision based on the duty of care owed to the injured person. The RRO is clear- there is no duty to train anyone who is not an employee.

As a person who regularly rides on the clapham omnibus (not)  I would suggest that if the Responsible person provides a higher level of equipment than the minimum recommended in approved guidance, at his expense, he would be well placed to win any case brought against him even if an untrained person was injured using it. Providing equipment may lead to an improved standard of fire safety for all persons if a small fire can be prevented from escalating.

[val]

Thank you Kurnal,

More eloquant than my response.

More rubbish is talked about the need for training in the use of extinguishers than anything else. Manufacturers spend a small fortune making them lighter, easier to use, more effective and providing simple explanations on appropriate use. Not everyone needs a fire warden's training to pick up an extinguisher. (Although this should be considerd about right for a smallish preportion of employees).
Remember four/fiths of fires are not reported to the FRS so presumably they are extinguished with something. Some might even be by an untrained extinguisher user.

And no, I dont work for Chubb!