Automatic Fire Detection Rro [sleeping Guide Page 55]

[FORRIE]

Flats and maisonettes constructed to current building regulations, will not require AFD in common areas. SEE NOTE 4 PAGE 55. What is the defination of " current building regulations".

[CivvyFSO]

Should technically be anything built under the 1981 Building Regulations and onwards.

[wee brian]

1985 I think

[Martin Burford]

FORRIE

I think your looking at the wrong Building Regs.page 55 relates to Section 5 General Provisions!
Conqueror

[jayjay]

If you are talking about the actual Building Regulations 2000 is the latest issue, these are the legal documents. The guidance for complying with the regulations is within the Approved Document B,  fire safety which is what I think you are refering to. Note Part B are not reglations but guidance on how you may comply.

The latest version of part B is dated 2006 which came into effect in April 2007 and can be downloaded from the Communities and Local Government web site. The document is now split into two sections Part 1 deals with dwelling houses and part 2 buildings other than dwelling houses. Check these documents and see any reference to "current regulations" will mean the latest as above and also the latest guidance as above.

[val]

When these guides were being written there was lots of discussion about terms such as 'current' or 'latest' or a specific date or version of ADB. In the end it was decided to leave it deliberately vague. 'Current' means 'pretty recent' and I know that is a kop out but it was impossible, (and not really desirable) to state 2000 edition or anything else.
'Pretty recent' is the real meaning of 'current'.
Remember these guides are not primarily for professional people like you and me, and were not meant to be prescriptive in any way. (although the Courts are already interpreting them as such).

[fred]

Remember these guides are not primarily for professional people like you and me, and were not meant to be prescriptive in any way. (although the Courts are already interpreting them as such).

I think the gap between what was 'meant' and what is actually happening has widened - and it's getting wider.  If the guidance documents written specifically for the RRO indicate or 'suggest' (especially the table on Fire Alarms) a standard, then that will inevitably become the minimum standard - and FRS's will by default prescibe the 'suggested' standard as a minimum requirement - because it's the easiest way to compile an Enforcement Notice - and that's prescription - and then by default the guide becomes a standard.

[greg]

Current means the guide, document or legislation that is currently in force. The latest one that has not been superceded by another more up to date document.  Pretty simple really.

The guides are what they say, guides, they suggest ways and standards that would help the client achieve the aims of the legislation. In no way does this  make them proscriptive. The fact that the client/applicants have no clue how else they may comply is not the fault of the enforcers. It is less work for the enforcers to suggest, enforce, recommend a recognised guide than give a list of other standards that are unlikely to be be recognised by fitters etc. It is also not the duty of the enforcers to design bespoke systems for clients. However it is the responsibility of the client to show that they have complied with the legislation.

I can't see an issue here.

[greg]

Forrie,
to answer your question if it has not been done already, current in the example you are using are the current building regs when the RRO guide went to press this would have been AD B 2000 edition consolidated with 2000 and 2002 amendments. Since the publication of the RRO guide their has been a new AD B published 2006 edition.

I think now you could probably read note 4 as saying that if the premises are built to  building regs then they will have a sufficient level of fire detection.

However that is not to say that this might not need to be improved, if your risk assessment determined it was necessary

[FORRIE]

Thanks for all your imputs chaps, they are greatly appreciated. CONQUEROR I refer to page 55 0f the RRO sleeping guide not Building Regulations, easy mistake to make!!! If you examine all the postings on this subject it is clear there is a wealth of experience out there, and a diversity of opinions. If current building regulations are to be applied to existing flats and maisonettes, would it imply that due to recent amendments within the building regulations that they do not conform to the required current standard, and that AFD is required in the communal areas to a GRADE A LD2 standard. Or would a later standard of BR be acceptable not to provide detection in the communal areas. The bottom line is what you find during your assessment, and provide fire safety provisions accordingly!!!. My head is hurting, have a great Bank Holiday..

[Martin Burford]

FORRIE
No its not an easy mistake to make.. you said in your posting Building Regulations, making no refernce to RRO Guide for Sleeping Accommodation!
Conqueror.

[AIsRUS]

Flats do not need AFD in common parts anyway as if there is a fire in the common parts your not getting out? Your getting confused with the old FSO and HMO Regs. They ask for L2 throughout all their properties predominantly becasue prior to 1985 compartmentation would not have been 1 hour as it is now therfore more reliant on getting out of the building quick. That is also the reason why AFD between flats is not interlinked. I am getting quite frustrated certain local authorities getting developers to sling AFD in common parts becasue a) There are just more false alarms and, b) all the leasholders unwittingly bear the maintenance cost for something which wasn't required in the first place.

[CivvyFSO]

FORRIE
No its not an easy mistake to make.. you said in your posting Building Regulations, making no refernce to RRO Guide for Sleeping Accommodation!
Conqueror.

Apart from in the topic title perhaps?

[Midland Retty]

FORRIE
No its not an easy mistake to make.. you said in your posting Building Regulations, making no refernce to RRO Guide for Sleeping Accommodation!
Conqueror.

Conqueror! get a grip man !!


Right the issue of what is current building regs...! Not an easy one.... does it mean current from the date you audit or inspect or does it allow as Val suggests it to be "recent" as opposed to "current " building regs?

I mean how about post 1992 Building Regs???

[AFD]

If there is a fire in the common parts, and it has been designed properly eg alternatives, seperation, sub division etc. and with early warning from AFD you should be able to get out safely.  In these days of malicious ignition (as well as accidental ignition) with youths hanging around flats and sheltered housing complexes( they are not all in leafy suburbs).  The common areas need protection, also how many even recently built/converted flats have satisfactory fire stopped enclosures around them with site building regs. inspections from a distance.
Part 1 L2 system to common areas, pt6 to individual flats, no false alarms, safe building.