Author Topic: Backdraft  (Read 29229 times)

Offline The Lawman

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Backdraft
« on: July 03, 2007, 10:17:42 PM »
Hi ,

I have read all I can find about backdraft and seen the demos/videos but have never yet been told exactly what to do to combat the problem. Exactly how do you safely ventilate a compartment when such conditions exist?

I'm very fortunate not to have encountered this yet operationally but who knows, it could be my next shout!

Cheers for any help....

Offline pugh

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Backdraft
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2007, 10:29:04 AM »
First thing is to make the determination that b/d conditions actually exist within the compartment.  Very difficult without physically entering.

Then, to control the ventilation, you need to create openings by breaking windows, preferably at a high level.  ( Manual authors - Ever tried breaking a d/g upper floor window with a ceiling hook from the ground?  Thought not.)  Once you have an opening for air to get in and for it to get out again, get the PPV to push it around then re-assess.

It all boils down to experience. If you aren't attending incidents where you get exposure to this sort of thing then al you have to go on is training received and doing your best to translate that into real life when it happens.

I know that there are some very experienced people out there that can provide you with some alternatives.  Let's just hope they respond.

Offline kurnal

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Backdraft
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2007, 05:14:08 PM »
The thinking when I was in the job was to observe the signs of the smoke behaviour at leakage paths from the fire compartment and without intoducing air to give the upper part of the room  repeated blasts with a water mist/ fine spray  to reduce the temperature and replace the flammable atmosphere with a steam laden one. Ventilation can then follow once the back draught risk has diminished. Cant remember how they covered the entrainment of air wth the spray though. And this technique may be outdated- the idea originated in Sweden IIR.

Offline The Lawman

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Backdraft
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2007, 05:38:15 PM »
Cheers Kurnal,

Obviously the compartment door would have to be opened to do that which defeats the logic? Sorry if I'm missing something.

Offline Andy Cole

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Backdraft
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2007, 06:09:48 PM »
Quote from: kurnal
The thinking when I was in the job was to observe the signs of the smoke behaviour at leakage paths from the fire compartment and without intoducing air to give the upper part of the room  repeated blasts with a water mist/ fine spray  to reduce the temperature and replace the flammable atmosphere with a steam laden one. Ventilation can then follow once the back draught risk has diminished. Cant remember how they covered the entrainment of air wth the spray though. And this technique may be outdated- the idea originated in Sweden IIR.
This is the way I understood it should be done aswell, using 'door entry procedures' in a team of two. First FF positions him/herself behind the door and is ready to open it for a second maybe two on the second FF's command who is positioned out of the direct path of the door (ie to one side behind the wall). when ready the 2nd FF gives the command to open and immediately puts the HR in directed at the ceiling and lets off two or three quick sprays of water then quickly retracts the HR and resumes the rest position ready to repeat the exercise, thius works by cooling the combustible gases within the compartment and eliminating the danger of a Backdraught.

It has to be said that this is a really dangerous situation to find yourself in and I thought all FF's were taught how recognise the signs and deal with it correctly and safely, the above is a skill which should be practised, you probably won't get a second go on a job!. When you do it a good tip is to be careful where you position the HR in relation to your buddy's hands, any water wasted on their hands could cause them burns in a hot compartment.

This is just the way I've been shown, that said we haven't fully intergrated the use of positive pressure ventilation attack yet so I guess there could well be a different method using the PPV!

Lawman,
Ask about it and do a course or some proper on station training, it's a skill you definitely need to have!!

Offline The Lawman

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Backdraft
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2007, 06:38:22 PM »
Cheers,

Just through my BA refresher and quite happy with  the door opening procedures and temperature checks etc. I would however hesitate to open a door where there was pulsing smoke issuing without considering outside ventilation.

Thanks for your help.

Offline Fireguy1230

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Backdraft
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2007, 08:03:19 PM »
Lawman

 You are quite right in saying that opening the door goes against logic, but unfortunately if you want to enter the compartment and carry out a rescue or fight the fire offensively,your going to have to enter at some point.

 The main point to note is to ensure that when you open the door you are positioned behind the door (if inward opening) or behind the wall next to the door standard (if outward opening). This will provide you with a bit of shielding in the event of a backdraft and deflect some of the force.

 Unfortunately my FRS does not employ the use of PPV, so we have to do it hard way!

Offline The Lawman

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Backdraft
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2007, 08:22:34 PM »
Cheers,

I appreciate your help. Guess so far I've been lucky!

Midland Retty

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Backdraft
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2007, 09:19:09 AM »
Quote from: The Lawman
Cheers Kurnal,

Obviously the compartment door would have to be opened to do that which defeats the logic? Sorry if I'm missing something.
Not quite right Lawman

Correct door check procedures and "water hanging" which is where you apply a fine mist at the top of the door to the compartment you wish to enter before opening it can avoid backdraughts

Essentially you come to the door you wish to enter - spray a fine mist at the top of it first (water hanging)

Then adopt a crouched position using the door or wall as protection and then crack open the door just enough to allow the hose branch in

You then apply three quick water pulses as follows:-

One aimed at the ceiling....

One aimed in the middle and one at the bottom.

So log as you dont open the door fully you should not get a backdraught. Any products of combustion coming through the door should be cooled / displaced by steam by the short pulses put into the room and any residual products of combustion ejecting from teh compartment dealt with by the water hanging effect.

Offline The Lawman

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Backdraft
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2007, 01:04:42 PM »
Thanks MR,

I can see the logic in that. It's not a procedure I've been taught but it makes sense.

Dave

Midland Retty

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Backdraft
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2007, 02:25:04 PM »
Quote from: The Lawman
Thanks MR,

I can see the logic in that. It's not a procedure I've been taught but it makes sense.

Dave
No worries mate - I know there's a lot of different techniques operated by different brigades across the UK and no particular "nationalised" procedure.

Offline Big T

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Backdraft
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2007, 04:47:00 PM »
Thats exactly what I was taught on my Flashover backdraft course

Offline rips

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Backdraft
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2007, 07:44:48 PM »
One thing that definitely SHOULD NOT be used if a backdraft conditions exist is PPV. PPV will accelerate the backdraft and make conditions uncontrolable for fire crews. I have used PPV under controlled conditions in a training scenario and have blown the PPV across the drill yard!

If such conditiond exost in acompartment the chances of a person surviving is alomost zero.

The safest way to make the situation safe for the crews is to externally ventilate the room/compartment. The exposures of the opening should be covered by a jet (water should not be put into the room), once and if the backdraft occurs this will be the ideal opportunity for crews to enter the room/compartment to deal with the fire.

If an external vent canot be made, crews will have to use the appropriate door opening techniques, and apply water into the gases to attempt to dilute the gases. there is no point going through door opening and water application techniques as they are all different across the country. This technique will take as long as necessary depending on the conditions.

All firefighters across the country MUST receive Fire Behaviour Training as noted in previous DCOL / Health & Safety Notices etc.
Any views I express are my own and not my employers. Still confused!

Offline The Lawman

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Backdraft
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2007, 09:49:44 PM »
Interesting that there are fairly fundemental differences in some of these posts. I would have thought that there would be an established "procedure" for such conditions

Offline Cut Fire Service Pay

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Backdraft
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2007, 05:44:16 PM »
I carried out my BA course and fire behaviour training at a superb fire behaviour training centre in the 'South West'. I am lucky (some might say unlucky) in that I have experienced backdraught/flashover conditions for real. Using the training I got, which is described in these posts, I delt with these conditions to great effect.

About 6 months back I attended a BA refresher with an East Midlands brigade, that shall remain nameles! I was 're-instructed' as I was told these proceedures were now in-correct. I was told that when you get to the compartment you should do the following:

Spray the door, look to see the temp ect...

Open the door, look in shouting 'fire & rescue service' - DO NOT pulse any water

Wait then open the door again and short pulse spray once

shut the door wait then go in

Now I was not happy with the opening the door and shouting your life story without putting water into the compartment. I was always of the impression that if there were backdraught conditions that opening the compartment without spraying water could hasten the onsett of a backdraught by the admission of oxygen?

I argued my case unsucsessfully and was told that if i did not adopt this 'New' proceedure I would be taken off the run.

Who is right as I think I am?