Private Dwelling or HMO

[Ricardo]

Thanks again for the responses, I am unsure at this time what action the local F&RS have taken, but I agree wholeheartedly with PhilB and Midland Retty here, someone must act, and if necessary the local F&RS should be issuing a prohibition notice, I don’t think its rocket science that its not being used in the spirit of a single private dwelling, (well not as we know it) I will need to find out about the HHSRS and if it applies in Scotland.

AndyJ, I have not come across the term “shared house” before not in any fire legislation anyway,
And I agree with you that the 10 extra people as long as they can get away with it will be regarding this 2 bedroom house as their “private dwelling” but that surely cant be right, I am sure there are loads of this going on up and down the country, I believe the FRS did contact the local housing about this, but all they allegedly said was that if these people are made homeless they will help them find new accommodation.

It just appears to me that either the landlord or his single tenant, or both are doing whatever they can to avoid compliance with fire safety, its just how I see it.

[AndyJ]

Ricardo,

The shared house issue is really an English problem (legally anyway) and is about a group of friends or colleagues renting and collectivly using a house together - as such English law (the RRFSO) doesn't treat them differently to a group of family members living in the same house.

For your problem (and thanks to PhilB for flagging that the premises are in Scotland) my understanding is that the premises are domestic premises and as such are only subject to the Fire Scotland Act 2005 if they are required to be licenced under the Civic Government (Scotland) Act.

[Midland Retty]

Ricardo,

The shared house issue is really an English problem (legally anyway) and is about a group of friends or colleagues renting and collectivly using a house together - as such English law (the RRFSO) doesn't treat them differently to a group of family members living in the same house.

Hi Andy

The RRO would apply to shared houses in England because if the residents are not of the same family unit it becomes a HMO, regardless of whether or not they are all friends.

[nearlythere]

Not doing anything is not an option in my view. The Tenant is clearly in Breech of his Lease conditions and the Landlord coud seek legal recourse under the lease. As the Lease will no doubt be silent regarding resposibility for a FRA the Landlord could be pursued by the Fire Officer at the same time that action is taken agaist the tenant.

Maybe the landlord is quite happy with this arrangement. No need for stupid and expensive fire safety measures.

[nearlythere]

Ricardo,

The shared house issue is really an English problem (legally anyway) and is about a group of friends or colleagues renting and collectivly using a house together - as such English law (the RRFSO) doesn't treat them differently to a group of family members living in the same house.

Hi Andy

The RRO would apply to shared houses in England because if the residents are not of the same family unit it becomes a HMO, regardless of whether or not they are all friends.

What is a family unit now a days? Are co-habiting partners with children a family? Are co-habiting single sex partners a family? Can 10 single sex persons not live as a family? Can 10 persons sharing a house not share the rent and live as a family?
The definition of a family (whatever that is) can be much broader than of the past.
Not saying I know answer but gives food for thought.

[Midland Retty]

Hi nearlythere

I believe the law would accept blood relatives or partners (ie two people) with children (from either partner) as a family unit.

Same sex couples would be seen as a family unit. But if you start getting ten people co habiting then clearly this couldnt be a family unit or a co-habiting couple.

If granny comes to live with the family that would still be deemed as a single family unit because clearly Granny is a blood relative.

If you then get Joe Bloggs come and stay as a lodger cos the family decide to rent out one room of their house then its a HMO.

Basically there are two issues here...

- The Paying of Rent -If Joe Bloggs were to lodge free of charge then I don't think think it could be classed as a HMO.

- If you had ten people BUYING a home (not renting) then that wouldnt be deemed as a HMO

So in short rent is the key to it all. Length of time someone lodges is also an important point, if my friend has a birthday party and me and some of his other chums stop over for the night we don't automatically make his house a HMO!

We are simply stopping there for the short term.

[nearlythere]

Hi nearlythere

I believe the law would accept blood relatives or partners (ie two people) with children (from either partner) as a family unit.

Same sex couples would be seen as a family unit. But if you start getting ten people co habiting then clearly this couldnt be a family unit or a co-habiting couple.

If granny comes to live with the family that would still be deemed as a single family unit because clearly Granny is a blood relative.

If you then get Joe Bloggs come and stay as a lodger cos the family decide to rent out one room of their house then its a HMO.

Basically there are two issues here...

- The Paying of Rent -If Joe Bloggs were to lodge free of charge then I don't think think it could be classed as a HMO.

- If you had ten people BUYING a home (not renting) then that wouldnt be deemed as a HMO

So in short rent is the key to it all. Length of time someone lodges is also an important point, if my friend has a birthday party and me and some of his other chums stop over for the night we don't automatically make his house a HMO!

We are simply stopping there for the short term.

Rett. Just to prolong the issue and because I'm at a loose end at the minute - what if I had a wife and a mistress or mistresses and we all lived in the same house, harem like, would it be an HMO?

[Midland Retty]

well if you did that then:-

a) youre  lucky sod

and

b) unless you were a ruthless husband / master then I take it you wouldnt be charging them rent so I suppose that would be allowed.

If you did charge rent to say the mistress I reckon you'd be on sticky ground.

Is it lawful to have hareem type arrangements these days?

[Tom Sutton]

nearlythere I do not think it would matter to him he would be dead or seriously injured after the wife had poured the boiling water over his marriage tackle.

[nearlythere]

Hi nearlythere

I believe the law would accept blood relatives or partners (ie two people) with children (from either partner) as a family unit.

Same sex couples would be seen as a family unit. But if you start getting ten people co habiting then clearly this couldnt be a family unit or a co-habiting couple.

If granny comes to live with the family that would still be deemed as a single family unit because clearly Granny is a blood relative.

If you then get Joe Bloggs come and stay as a lodger cos the family decide to rent out one room of their house then its a HMO.

Basically there are two issues here...

- The Paying of Rent -If Joe Bloggs were to lodge free of charge then I don't think think it could be classed as a HMO.

- If you had ten people BUYING a home (not renting) then that wouldnt be deemed as a HMO

So in short rent is the key to it all. Length of time someone lodges is also an important point, if my friend has a birthday party and me and some of his other chums stop over for the night we don't automatically make his house a HMO!

We are simply stopping there for the short term.

Rett. Just to prolong the issue and because I'm at a loose end at the minute - what if I had a wife and a mistress or mistresses and we all lived in the same house, harem like, would it be an HMO?

In this case would HMO stand for House of Multiple Orgasms?  Just a thought.

[Big T]

The answer is very simple, it is up to the local council to issue a HMO declaration.

Unless all the people in the building form one household it is a HMO. The only way you can say it forms one household is if they are all related. Regardless of them saying we all share bills/sleep in the same room etc. A same sex couple with 3 foster kids would form one household. If I move my entire family into my house (3 uncles, 4 Grannies, 8 cousins etc) It would still be one household because we are related. If I have 8 kids, its still one household. (A Gruel eating household wearing bags as clothes but still 1 household)

The only HMO exemptions are if the Landlord lives in the property and rents 2 rooms to 2 different people therefore creating 3 households or if the house is occupied by no more than 2 people.

[Ricardo]

Great to see the debate still rolling along, agree with your comments at post 21 Midland Retty

Big T, have not come accross the term HMO declaration before, can you explain what you mean by the council issuing such a thing? cheers

[CivvyFSO]

From the housing act:

255 HMO declarations (1) If a local housing authority are satisfied that subsection (2) applies to a building or part of a building in their area, they may serve a notice under this section (an “HMO declaration”) declaring the building or part to be a house in multiple occupation.

[Big T]

Ricardo.

Communities and local government have some good online publications on HMO's. Check out the guides for landlords and managers. Should cover all your queries

www.communities.gov.uk/publications/housing/licensinghouses

[nearlythere]

Ricardo.

Communities and local government have some good online publications on HMO's. Check out the guides for landlords and managers. Should cover all your queries

www.communities.gov.uk/publications/housing/licensinghouses

Good Link