Fatal Newquay Hotel Fire

[Cut Fire Service Pay]

I watched the news yesterday in horror as the Penhallow Hotel in Newquay burned. This is a place i've stayed at in the past. There are so many unanswered questions coming out of this that wouldn't have been just a couple of years ago.

Why no AFA activation and attendence from Cornwall FB?

Why only ONE pump out of TWO at Newquay was on the run?

Why Newquays' broken HP was not replaced with a reserve?

Why Truros' HP was also off the run?

Why no one listens to operational Firefighters anymore? We predicted this would happed under this 'Modernisation' culture.

The risk assesment process that has replaced fire service inspections was always going to be a sham. Just another excuse to cut a few CFS jobs. Its ironic that both of the unavalible HPs are currently under threat of the modernisation AXE. Even more ironic is the appliance that attended from Plymouth is due to be cut and management have been tring to get rid of it for years!

Anyone that says that an HP/TL would have had no impact on the outcome has obviously never seen one at work. bearing in mind that if Newquays' was avalible to attend it would have been there in the early stages.

The fire service should go back to attending ALL AFAs and stop this penny pinching that is costing lives. No more of this nonsense of asking callers 'do you actualy have a fire?'

Someone needs to take the balme for this tradgedy on the fire service side and i think we can start by asking the CFO or whatever he calls himself down there to resign!

God rest the souls of the dead and thoughts go to the relatives left behind.

(yes I am very angry)

[The Colonel]

Pete

I think your jumping the gun more than a little, yes anyone in the fire service community will be angry that any life is lost but let the investigation provide the facts and not the press or rumours or even speculation.

How do you know there was no AFA activation were you there? and from what I can see Cornwall FS were inattendace or were my eyes deceiving me.

One pump from Newquay, crewing levels, IRMP, holidays could be endless reasons and only the investigation will find out and it could have been the case before the service went down the risk assessment road.

How many rural services do you know that have reserve aerials, in 31 years in the job we never had the luxury or money to have one stuck in workshops just incase. I dont doubt that a TL/HP would have had an effect and as a former TL operator I know only to well, but we all have a degree in hindsight if only we could see the future.

Having been in the position of managing crewing levels along with that of appliance availability I know how these things can and do change by the minute. You have to look at the whole picture within a service and place both pumps and specials where the greatist risk is perceived to be, its a balancing act that occasionaly does not work out but we work with what is avalable and dont have a magic wand.

Speculation is not good for anyone including service members but more so for the families of those that died or were injured give them some peace not speculation or possible political point scoring

[AnthonyB]

It's probable that the full facts will never be known with the virtual obliteration of the site. Those of us in fire safety will all be thinking to ourselves that there must have been several fire safety issues associated with the premises, but I doubt justice will be done as the evidence is a mere pile of bricks.

As said, best wait until some more info emerges

[Tom Sutton]

The following is an extract from a Bt Yahoo article,

"Harry Hill checked into room 33 at the Penhallow Hotel in Newquay, Cornwall, at 7.30pm on Friday, just a few hours before the blaze which destroyed the building.

The 49-year-old, from the Isle of Wight, was there to celebrate his 50th birthday and said that when the alarm went off he thought people were just playing around until staff started banging on his second floor room."

A situation I have heard about and witnessed myself - people’s response to operating fire alarms.

[John Webb]

A mother, daughter and grandson were interviewed on TV; they said that when the alarm went off they thought it was "just a practice" but on leaving their room found smoke in the corridor, realised it wasn't a practice and left very quickly. So it would seem that the FA was actuated, although by detection or manual operation has not yet been made public.

[Andy Cole]

Above and Beyond all speculation it is still a terrible tragedy and my thoughts are with those who have lost their friends and family as well as the Firefighters who clearly did all they could!!


RIP

[Midland Retty]

Yes its very strange how the fire took hold so quickly.

Its speculated that the hotel was recently inspected...

You just don't know what happened and we probably never will... I guess we just dont expect such a tradegy of this scale to happen these days.

[John Webb]

Two hotel employees interviewed on TV said that the "electrics went off, we smelt smoke soon after and then the fire alarm went off" - they then proceeded to see that guests were awake and getting out.

[kurnal]

The CFO of Cornwall gave an interview on radio 4 at 1730 today. He was asked it it was unusual for both aerial appliances to be unavailable at the same time and answered that it was a most unusual occurrance. The interviewer then asked how many aerials were available for a fire in cornwall tonight. The answer was that they are both still off the run, one awaiting a part from the USA, the other with a computer problem.
Hmmm.

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

I have just returned from holiday in Newquay and on the night before the fire at Penhallow, actually walked by the place commenting to my partner how nice a building it was ......

As an experienced firefighter and Aerial appliance operator (HP/TTL and ALP) the argument for how one would have impacted on operations is, in my opinion very clear ...... it would not have been able to get to work.
The reason I say this is that the streets around the hotel are very narrow with cars parked either side of the streets therefore access would have been difficult to say the least. What good could it have done with only one pump in attendance and the aerial requiring a dedicated feed from that pump? It could not have been used until adequate resources were on scene to provide the water supplies for it to be effective in firefighting.

When operating an aerial, the crew is responsible for their safety, that of crews in the vicinity and the appliance. A decision would have to have been made on what the use of it was to be ...... rescue platform or water tower. Then there is the question of exposing the cage operator to risk ........ would the outcome outweigh the risk? Probably not in this instance.

Why blame the modernisation agenda? What an easy target that is.

Yes, IRMP has an impact, yes appliances off the run has an impact, (on which point I have to say that if crewing was only available for one appliance, then maybe, even if available, the HP would not have turned out) lack of reserve appliances has an impact, but can a shire authority such as Cornwall actually justify having the best part of £500,000 of appliance sitting in a garage "just in case"?

I feel for the family of the male occupant who suffered fatal injuries and extend my symapthies to them and all the others affected by this incident. They need to come to terms with their loss aswell as find out the answers to their questions.

Why should the CFO resign? Is it his fault that the place went from nothing to total involvement in under 8 minutes? No it isn't, so lets be realistic about it.
There will be many questions asked and hopefully answers will be given. It will take time and the investigation will be thorough to establish the facts.

Despite the ferocity of the fire, we should be grateful that more individuals did not lose their lives, although it was confirmed by the Police they are expecting the toll to rise.

I would also commend the fire-fighters that attended, especially on the initial attendance for doing a sterling job in difficult conditions (considering how windy it was and the intensity of the fire they were facing) and confining the fire to one building and not letting it spread to adjoining premises.

[Midland Retty]

I agree with you Baldyman

[The Colonel]

I to agree with you

[Andy Cole]

So do I!!

[kurnal]

As an experienced firefighter and Aerial appliance operator (HP/TTL and ALP) the argument for how one would have impacted on operations is, in my opinion very clear ...... it would not have been able to get to work.
The reason I say this is that the streets around the hotel are very narrow with cars parked either side of the streets therefore access would have been difficult to say the least. What good could it have done with only one pump in attendance and the aerial requiring a dedicated feed from that pump? It could not have been used until adequate resources were on scene to provide the water supplies for it to be effective in firefighting.

I agree with all your points and there is no doubt that all the fire personnel attending would have moved heaven and earth to do their best for those affected by the fire and to save the property. Clearly they may have been  initially challenged by a shortage of resources and as always would have made the best of a difficult situation. No doubt the enquiry will identify how long it took to get additional pumps and high rise in attendance and then people may judge whether this is was acceptable and the reasons for it.

My point is simply over the provision of high rise cover for a county. For many years we have had no laid down attendance times for aerials, but they were primarily seen as life saving appliances and so were strategically placed where the building density survey carried out as part of the risk categorisation review ( which we no longer have in the wake of IRMPs) identified sufificent buildings  higher than 4 floors. Has modernisation led to a further erosion of cover? Do we still carry out similar surveys under the guise of the IRMP?

Whether the availability would have made a difference in this case is not my point, the point is that the incident has highlighted a problem with the availability of high rise appliances in a county, mirrored I know across the whole country.
No we cant have a £500k appliance sitiing in a reserve garage in case its needed - that would be wasteful  but to have two £500k appliances off the run  at the same time awaiting spares or repair is doubly so, however unfortunate or unforseeable this may be. I was surprised that the CFO did not say more in the interview to justify this as I thought the lack of any attempt to justify this spoke volumes.

Meanwhile I still have to ensure my clients provide and maintain access to their buildings for high rise appliances under the building regulations and the RRO- how many high rise are available nowadays up and down the country as part of the LAFB fleet?

[Big T]

I think it's unfair to lay blame on the fire brigade whatsoever. Yes there was undermanning, yes there were 2 HP's being repaired yes a pump was off the run etc etc.

The CFO was interviewed in the morning while the building was being demolished and I felt that he answered the questions he was asked extremely well without having the time to plan a response to each question.

The journo's were asking "is it normal to have both HP's offline" and he answered quite simply "no, but if theyre both broken it is" can't say fairer than that

I think having a £500K appliance in a garage just in case is a perfectly reasonable expectation to have. Not one per county. But a national pool of reserve vehicles isn't an unreasonable ask from the tax payer.

The HP not being in attendance wouldn't have made that much difference, especially when the place burned to the ground so quickly.

I think the building managers have a lot to answer for. It'd be interesting to see the FRA. If there even was one. Watching that building burn down, we all new that propped open fire doors, uncontrolled combustibles and ignition sources, poor fire safety/building management had a far greater significance than the lack of brigade turn out.