Author Topic: Fatal Newquay Hotel Fire  (Read 64059 times)

Offline AnthonyB

  • Firenet Extinguisher Expert
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2480
    • http://www.firewizard.co.uk
Fatal Newquay Hotel Fire
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2007, 03:48:22 PM »
I certainly wouldn't blame the fire service, after all in a commercial building occupants should be able to escape without their intervention anyway, thats the point of the legislation.

Reports suggest the spread was so rapid it wouldn't have mattered if the whole fleet was able to turn out on first alarm, a bit like the Bradford FC fire
Anthony Buck
Owner & Fire Safety Consultant at Fire Wizard


Extinguisher/Fire History Enthusiast

Fire Extinguisher Facebook Group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=65...415&ref=ts
http://www.youtube.com/user/contactacb
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/anthony-buck-36

Offline Mike Buckley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
Fatal Newquay Hotel Fire
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2007, 05:01:27 PM »
I agree I don't blame the fire service which was doing the best it could and if the fire spread was that rapid then unless the pumps were sitting outside there was not much they could do.

However the brown smelly stuff has hit the fan and the hunt for a scapegoat is on. I am afraid that the local problems will be used to hide the bigger issues.

There is a problem getting suitable retained cover wherever you are, machines do breakdown, need routine maintenance etc. but this happens all over the country.

The bigger issues such as the effectiveness of the RRO, how the RRO is policed, what funding is available, is the IRMP a good way to go are very likely to be pushed into the background.

Unfortunately all the public and the press see is that one fire engine couldn't turn out and both the aerials were off the run. Then its a case that today's headlines are tomorrow's chip paper.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it.

Offline Noodle999

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Fatal Newquay Hotel Fire
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2007, 05:04:58 PM »
Indeed Anthony, given how rapidly the entire building became involved and the fact that the ultimate attendance was by all accounts over 20 pumps, it's hard to see how it would have made a difference whether the second pump had arrived 2 minutes behind the first, or 10 minutes...

As Big T says, the more significant factors would have been the building design and fire precautions and procedures, along with how well both the staff and guests (how many people even bother to read the fire action notices in hotels?) adhered to the precautions and procedures. A real fire situation with staff having to bang on doors of still-inhabited rooms when an AFA is obviously far from ideal! Perhaps the shock of reading about those who have lost their lives will change peoples complacent attitudes, but then again probably not. Maybe we need to take a similar approach to that of the recent drink-driving adverts and put up posters featuring photos of charred bodies!

As for a national pool of reserve HP/ALP vehicles, this could potentially work but only with very careful planning about the types of vehicles in such a fleet. Obviously there are vast variations between the types of vehicle used by the various brigades, and an equivalent vehicle would need to be provided as a spare or their HP/ALP operators would need retraining to operate it. This alone would probably make the idea too much of a logistics nightmare, but maybe things will be different in 10 years' time, if the FireBuy project results in the anticipated restriction on the purchasing choices of brigades...

Offline Nearlybaldandgrey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 695
Fatal Newquay Hotel Fire
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2007, 10:06:28 PM »
The most recent thing I heard from Cornwall was that there is to be an internal investigation. It is unfair of the press to ask the CFO questions he does not have the answers to, hence the investigation.

This is possibly the first serious fire involving loss of life since the introduction of the Fire Safety Order. It will be interesting to see how the owners of the premises fair under scrutiny of the level of compliance, if any. They were last inspected in 2006 ....... before the introduction of the FSO, so were they still hiding behind the fire certificate?
I hope the investigation reveals some answers and those in positions of responsibility are held accountable.

Out of the tragedy, some good has to come. This is possibly the time to fully test the legislation.

Offline The Lawman

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 77
Fatal Newquay Hotel Fire
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2007, 10:28:42 PM »
When will some bright spark reinvent the Fire Certificate?

Offline AnthonyB

  • Firenet Extinguisher Expert
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2480
    • http://www.firewizard.co.uk
Fatal Newquay Hotel Fire
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2007, 11:23:36 PM »
Hopefully not soon if the premises' certificate is found to date back to the early 80s and the source of inadequate (by todays standards) compartmentation, procedures, training & alarms!
Anthony Buck
Owner & Fire Safety Consultant at Fire Wizard


Extinguisher/Fire History Enthusiast

Fire Extinguisher Facebook Group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=65...415&ref=ts
http://www.youtube.com/user/contactacb
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/anthony-buck-36

Offline The Lawman

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 77
Fatal Newquay Hotel Fire
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2007, 11:30:04 PM »
Hi AnthonyB, I take it you are quite comfortable with the FRA culture?

I have asked a number of hoteliers for their FRAs and haven't yet seen one that would satisfy even the most basic scrutiny in terms of the Legal obligations imposed by Part 3 of the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005.

There are potentially many more Newquay type fires to come I fear.

Offline Tom Sutton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2287
Fatal Newquay Hotel Fire
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2007, 05:52:16 PM »
Hi Lawman it is not the FRA culture that is the problem, its self regulation and enforcement. Forty years ago experienced inspection officers did use FRA may be not to the same extent as today but enforcement was more rigorous. Because the system was comparatively easy inexperienced fire-fighters could conduct inspections and if there was any problems pass it on to the FP department.

Consequently thousands of inspections were conducted now days an experienced inspecting officer is required to conduct an audit and only in high risk premises what happens to the medium and low risk premises? Also fire safety departments have been decimated over the last ten years, in my opinion it does not look good for the future but I sincerely hope I am wrong.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline AnthonyB

  • Firenet Extinguisher Expert
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2480
    • http://www.firewizard.co.uk
Fatal Newquay Hotel Fire
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2007, 08:59:12 PM »
No, I'm not comfortable with the current FRA culture as the only reason the existing builds I visit have decent precautions is because of the FP Act and new builds the Building Regs - if it was down to most users FRAs they would be woefully unequipped and constructed. Fire Certs were of great use, especially in our area of multi occupancies where a minimum common standard throughout the building was enforced, but did have their drawbacks of legitimising outdated precauations as well.

I think twsutton has hit the nail on the head with why the current thinking of up to date risk based precautions whilst good on paper is falling down.
Anthony Buck
Owner & Fire Safety Consultant at Fire Wizard


Extinguisher/Fire History Enthusiast

Fire Extinguisher Facebook Group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=65...415&ref=ts
http://www.youtube.com/user/contactacb
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/anthony-buck-36

Offline The Lawman

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 77
Fatal Newquay Hotel Fire
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2007, 10:56:51 PM »
I sincerely believe that the whole thing will go full circle but not before there is a significant number of fatal fires.

The Rose and Crown fire was some 38 years ago, we shouldn't be anticipating more incidents like that.

Offline Fishy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
Fatal Newquay Hotel Fire
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2007, 10:12:29 AM »
Assessment of fire risk by building owners / occupiers has developed from the general HASAWA and Management Reg’s Health and Safety risk assessment regime, which relies upon those occupants to have the best knowledge of their workplace and what goes on in it, and who are thus best placed to identify the hazards and assess the risks.  Why treat fire safety any different – the same people are responsible and it should be assessed in exactly the same way as the myriad of other safety risks that are dealt with successfully on a daily basis?  This argument is, in my humble opinion, fundamentally flawed, for some key reasons.

For most hazards, responsible and vigilant managers should be able to identify them, and assess the seriousness of the consequences.  It’s fairly straightforward to identify that a mezzanine without handrails could result in someone falling to their death, and to identify a suitable risk reduction measure, for example.  Most people are nowhere near equipped to conceive how a fire can start and develop – how fast it can grow inside a building, how much smoke can result from even a small item burning and how smoke can move more quickly than you can run and how little time their might be to mobilise a response. Their sole experience of a big fire might be warming their hands in front of a nice, big friendly bonfire on November the 5th.  Without this experience, unless they have clear and easy-to-follow guidance, they cannot be expected to adequately assess fire risk, or to identify appropriate risk reduction measures.  I’d argue that the current RR(FS)O Guidance is neither clear nor is it easy-to-follow.

The second key issue is that the consequences of a fire can be vastly different to the consequences of almost any other workplace hazard.  Most hazards might cause significant risk to one or two people. Fire can (and has) caused multiple casualties.  Society has an intolerance of such incidents, especially in places where people place themselves in the charge of others (like hotels, transport premises and places of entertainment).  People expect, rightly or wrongly, complete safety when they ‘surrender’ themselves into the care of others in those places.  This is a prime reason why we have had incident-led legislation, following fires such as King’s Cross and Bradford.

The third key issue is that, for most building managers, there is an underlying assumption that a fire will never happen in their building.  This makes fire safety a ‘grudge purchase’ – they see no benefit in investing in it, and will not do so unless someone forces them to do so.  Even if they have conscientious safety people who recommend improvement, my experience is that the Bean Counters simply say “Show me where the law says that I have to do it” and, of course, the law actually mandates very little – you can do more or less what you like, provided that you believe you’ve assessed the risks.  Weak and woolly ‘enforcement concordat’ – type regulation is the greatest supporter of such people, and undermines those in those organisations who want to do reduce fire risk, but cannot rely upon the Brigades to back them up with firm advice, or even enforcement.  Believe me – it happens.

I predict that fire deaths in certain types of premises (hotels and other sleeping risks, and in places where a significant number of the occupants are disabled) WILL rise, as a direct consequence of this legislation.  If all goes as planned, and the fire authorities target domestic fire safety, we might, though, see a reduction in deaths in the home.  With a limited amount of money to spend on fire safety in the UK, maybe this is as it should be?  Let’s not pretend, though, that the current risk-based regime will improve, or even maintain, fire safety in non-domestic premises, because I just don’t see the mechanism by which this will happen.

Rant over!

Offline The Lawman

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 77
Fatal Newquay Hotel Fire
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2007, 10:36:42 AM »
Hi,

Very well put.

Allied to the concerns regarding these properties is my fear that as "domestic bread and butter" incidents are reducing through CFS, firefighters are going to be exposed to greater risks when they are turned out to incidents such as a hotel fire for example due to not being as "hands-on" with BA.

Worrying times ahead!

Offline Tom Sutton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2287
Fatal Newquay Hotel Fire
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2007, 11:32:30 AM »
Fishy on your predictions, at least those premises you mentioned are getting audits, so the RP are reminded of their responsibilities. What about the medium and low risk premises, they will be getting no audits and once the fire precautions required by the FPA becomes inadequate what then.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline John Webb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 838
Fatal Newquay Hotel Fire
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2007, 01:41:38 PM »
One advantage of the FPA system of Certificates was that a copy were held off the premises by the local Fire Brigade. In the event of a catastrophic fire at least the fire service had information about the precautions that had existed at the time of issue of the certificate. With FRAs, held only on the premises (unless possibly part of a larger business with copies held at company HQ), it is likely that no-one will hold such information and inquiry into fires like this one will be considerably hampered because it will not be clear what the FRA had concluded and what work, if any was done as a result of the FRA.

Is there a case to require all businesses to lodge their FRAs with the local FRS? I can see several advantages to this:
(a) a copy of the FRA would be held off the premises for reference in the event of a major fire;
(b) the FRS could see which businesses had not yet carried out or submitted their FRAs;
(c) a quick check of each FRA should be a good guide as to the seriousness with which each business takes its fire safety responsibilities;
(d) the FRS check on FRAs should also highlight the 'cowboys' carrying out poor quality FRAs and thus, hopefully, help to deter them or weed them out.
John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

Offline The Lawman

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 77
Fatal Newquay Hotel Fire
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2007, 02:32:34 PM »
Surely someone should have forseen this in the risk assessment environment we operate in.