Author Topic: Fatal Newquay Hotel Fire  (Read 64064 times)

Offline jokar

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« Reply #60 on: September 10, 2007, 08:00:29 PM »
I agree although it wassuch a long time ago that wheeled escape were new then.

Offline nearlythere

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« Reply #61 on: September 11, 2007, 09:09:45 AM »
It was not that long ago Jokar. Certainly not before RAs came in.
The vast majority of existing buildings are still to the traditional design and construction. Its when you go out of town to "modernised" construction and design methods that the problems can arise and we all know what "Modernisation" means.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline pugh

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« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2007, 11:08:32 AM »
It matters not a jot if you have all the right ticks in the boxes, have carried out the FRA with due diligence, employed a FS manager as your competent person if, ultimately, as the operators of the premises you compromise all the foregoing by wedging doors open in central staircases for the 'convenience' of the occupants.  The British Standard wedge has caused more fire spread than will ever be acknowledged or counted.  And it was ever thus under the old FPA!  I saw it countless times during inspections; all the doors were closed but the marks from the wedges were deeply imprinted in the carpets.

It was bad enough then.  Now, with the RRO it will be impossible to regulate (ha ha, isn't that the point - DE regulating?) and with precious resources targetted elsewhere we now have the recipe for a number of such incidents and their terrible consequences.  Throw reduced manning levels, mis-management, economies in maintaining firefighting appliances, regional control centres, etc, into the mix and what, just a few years ago was a service envied the world over has become overstretched, underfunded and utterly demoralised.

The bells will still go down, the response will always be a minimum 100% from operational firefighters, but the personal cost is making many ask, "Is it worth it?"

Offline pugh

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« Reply #63 on: September 18, 2007, 10:54:53 AM »
Yet another fatal hotel fire, this time in Blackpool with over 60 firefighters attending.  As has already been highlighted on this thread, we can expect more of the same!

Offline finsp

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« Reply #64 on: September 18, 2007, 12:53:54 PM »
I think that things will unfortunately get worse before they get better, it is sad that as we know it takes people to suffer and those responsible to realise the implications of not taking ownership of their own risk by being held accountable for these contraventions. It is hard to keep the faith, and think back to fire certificates, but as we know they were by no means perfect. It also begs the question of how we approach these fires in relation to the increased risk to our firefighters.

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #65 on: September 18, 2007, 02:35:37 PM »
So what about all the people that died in hotels under the FPA - do they not count?

You guys do come out with some stuff!

Offline nearlythere

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« Reply #66 on: September 18, 2007, 02:47:24 PM »
How on earth can this happen? The Rt Honorable John (2 steak and kidney pies with chips) Prescott, bless im, famously said that fires do not happen at night. Some people are not playing by John's rules and it has to stop. Would risk assessments solve the problem?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline finsp

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« Reply #67 on: September 18, 2007, 04:10:09 PM »
wee brian,

I think you have misread my post, I am trying to say that we shouldnt blame the new legislation because it still happened with the FP Act and FPWPregs, and that those who do tend to feel fire certificates were the best way should try to remember that, also how restricting they were to the FPO who knew the standards werent right but could only offer goodwill advice because there had been no change of use or  material alterations.

Offline jokar

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« Reply #68 on: September 18, 2007, 08:19:42 PM »
Lets get something correct here, a peice of paper or 2 never saved a life.  An FRA is a premises. The recommendations/suggestions from an assessor are for the RP to put into place if they want to.  The RP has the accountability and responsibility for the Fire Safety Duties.  The WPFL and FPA were about protecting buildings and employees and hotel guests were part of that.  The difference now is that all people are relevant and protection has to be provided.

Offline jokar

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« Reply #69 on: September 18, 2007, 08:22:30 PM »
Words were missing in the above post, my computer seems to have a life if its own.  The second sentence should read " An FRA is an audit of the premises with an assessment of the fire risks with solutions of how that risk should or could be lowered"

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #70 on: September 18, 2007, 08:31:27 PM »
Sorry finsp we agree - how did that happen

Jokar - you must let the valves warm up before you use your computer and dont let the paper tape get damp.

Offline Nearlybaldandgrey

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« Reply #71 on: September 18, 2007, 08:51:29 PM »
Why is it that people are trying to blame the change in Legislation? (or is that just the impression I'm getting from the posts here?)

The old dead and buried FPA was restrictive to the fire authority by virtue of the certificate BUT the fire precautions required in premises should have been identified under the workplace regs (RIP) by the fire risk assessment ......... if they had one, and they should have had one for the past 10 years.

Lets also not forget that the Regs could over-ride the Act when it came to enforcement.

All fire deaths count, irrespective of the premises they occur in. This incident has hit the headlines due to the severity and speed it took hold more than anything.
Where are the posts about the fatal incident in Blackpool this week? Just a mention briefly in this topic.

Until there is a full test case (and Penhallow may be just that) and individuals are prosecuted and/or imprisoned for the offences, owners, employers and occupiers will continue to carry on thinking fire will never happen to them and give no thought to the consequences or the safety of the relevant person. It will take a full prosecution to embed in the minds of the responsible or competent person that this is real law, fully enforceable and carrying serious consequences for non compliance.

Finsp ..... reference your comment regarding "how we approach these fires in relation to the increased risk to fire fighters"  ....... you adopt defensive firefighting tactics. If you are prepared to commit crews into a fire that intense then you need a talking to or are you prepared to actually compromise the safety of personnel on the chance that you can rescue someone?  Remember that firefighters will take some risk to save saveable life or property, they will take little or no risk to save life or property that is already lost.

Offline nearlythere

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« Reply #72 on: September 19, 2007, 09:16:16 AM »
Would a RA take into account Prescott saying that fires do not happen at night? A means of escape certificate would not.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline finsp

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« Reply #73 on: September 19, 2007, 09:18:08 AM »
Yep agree with you all, I must try to get my opion across better on here, we are all talking the same talk!

Baldyman, again I agree with your comments regarding tactics wholeheartedly, its just a bit worrying that if we do have to commit a crew to save a saveable life, can we be confident that the structural FP is sufficient to give the protection we need, yeah I kno, Dynamic Risk Assess. lets wait and see what comes from the cases in question.

Cheers Guys

Offline devon4ever

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« Reply #74 on: September 19, 2007, 11:05:13 AM »
On a slightly different tack, it was most enlightening to hear the FBU at TUC conference last week make reference to the acute lack of social housing, rich cats buying second homes in rural towns & villages, minimum wage remaining static.....my point? - the same as the FBU's, price-out the work force from these areas and FRS has no pool of volunteers to man retained stations...one of the factors that Cornwall is currently facing and not alone I'm sure!

Its just my thoughts.....
(The Stig is my next door neighbour!)