Author Topic: Adb 5.12  (Read 21538 times)

Offline Wiz

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« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2007, 08:44:39 AM »
How many deaths have there been through the failure of mag-locks to release on a fire alarm condition as opposed to where fire doors had been deadlocked or padlocked?

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2007, 01:39:50 PM »
not many/any yet - lets wait for somebody to die and worry about it then.

Offline Wiz

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« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2007, 03:19:22 PM »
Not many/any yet may have to be an acceptable figure in the circumstances, Wee Brian. If we applied your logic to everything I assume we should also ban everything that results in loss of human life and not use the benefit against loss calculation that we presently have to apply to many things; transport, sport, entertainment, wars etc. etc.

Our only other option in respect of these maglock style devices would seem be to let the tresspassers, thieves and peeping-toms free access everywhere, no matter the material cost (and also possible human cost) to society.

If we can't come up with a better solution then surely maglocks and 'not many/any yet ' losses is better than deadlocks and padlocks and lots of losses.

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2007, 04:12:23 PM »
No mat youve got it wrong there.

We definately know that locked fire exits kill people. Thats why we dont lock them.

Maglocks are just a more complicated way of doing the same thing.

There are plenty of ways of preventing this sort of behaviour without locking people in. The design of the store can put staff areas (tills etc) adjacent to the exits. We can fit alarms and CCTV to discourage/record badness.

Chris Houston

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« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2007, 04:26:32 PM »
We do lock fire exits, we just make them easy to open.

To be fair, and speaking as someone who works with supermarkets, the criminal element don't care if they set off an alarm, or if they are on CCTV.

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2007, 04:52:42 PM »
Point taken, but you know what I mean.

If the baddies dont care then they will just go out the front door anyway.

I just can't find a good reason to justify delaying an exit door from opening in a building that's open to the public.

Chris Houston

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« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2007, 05:28:39 PM »
In the places where this is a problem there will be visible security on the front doors, it is the 10 or so side and rear fire exits that will be used for the theft.

I think you will find that most large supermarkets in below average areas will have a similar strategy.

Offline val

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« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2007, 07:37:45 PM »
Wiz,
Our only other option in respect of these maglock style devices would seem be to let the tresspassers, thieves and peeping-toms free access everywhere, no matter the material cost (and also possible human cost) to society.
First and third are kept out with push bar type devices. Mag locks are not need to keep people out!

Chris,
My local supermarket is that desparate to increase their bottom line profits that they nearly always remove the security person and rope off, one of only two main entry/exit doors. This leaves an unholy crush around the single'patrolled' entry/exit door. Often it can take a full minute to actually get out of the door even wheneverybody's being polite.

Of course there are other fire exits, which means that we cannot take enforcement action, but we all know which doors people use in a panic. Their desparation to meet profit targets sometimes leaves me breathless.

I also have a problem with the concept of 'there are lots of bad people about so lets potentially increase the danger for the law abiding majority.' Seems the way with everything these days...if we have a problem, lets reduce the rights of the majority.

I still return to my original question...why put it in ADB and then ignore it?

Offline Wiz

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« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2007, 09:07:30 AM »
To those who feel that it is possible to stop 'wrongdoers' from using fire exits, when they shouldn't, by some sort of design layout of the premises, should realise that this is probably only partly possible at the building construction design stage, and, even then, there are always constraints that will cause 'weak points' in the design. Also, sometimes a building is eventually used for a purpose other than it was originally designed for and even though the fire exits are in the right places for escape, they are not for secuity purposes. If it was possible to easily 'design out' all the potential security risks in every building, in every case, then surely it would be done. No-one wants to spend the extra money on fitting mag-locks etc., if a similar or better solution was available.

To those who feel that the 'wrongdoers' be given free access/exit on the basis that there is a risk (and it seems that no-one has yet been able to prove the level and liklihood of this risk for an evaluation of whether it is worth taking) of people becoming trapped in a fire due to a failure of the system, I would guess that they have never run a business. Believe it or not, people generally only run businesses to make money! It is how they earn their wages to pay their bills, and feed their families, and also pay their taxes to pay the wages of all those people who are government money funded. Profit is not a four letter word - it pays everyone's wages. Yours and mine. Directly or indirectly.

When a business owner finds that tresspassers, thieves and peeping-toms are costing him money he looks at it as though this money is basically coming from his own pocket. He will obviously be concerned and will need to take steps to protect his livlihood. Or go bust. He won't be helped by anyone if he does go bust through no fault of his own. He also won't have the protection of being able to make a mistake and still get paid (and earn a pension fund)  because he hasn't got any 'employment rights' nor does he work for an organisation that doesn't need to make a profit because it 'earns' it's income from taxes.

Surely we can all see that the problem of securing fire exits to avoid their misuse is a very real and big one. Everything we are all suggesting has been tried and found not to be acceptable to one or the other part of the community. Therefore we need to come up with a better solution than those that presently exist.

It would be great if people on this forum could use their combined knowledge, experience and innovative-thinking, to come up with a real solution to this problem together. Any offers?

For my own part, I feel the answer will still involve using the automatically releasing lock scenario, but incorporating enough fail-safes to keep the 'any risk is a too high a risk' advocates happy (even grudgingly! ?)

Offline Dinnertime Dave

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« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2007, 10:16:34 AM »
Quote from: val
I still return to my original question...why put it in ADB and then ignore it?
Val, there are many parts of ADB that seem to be ignored, its knowing what can be ignored (I prefer the word 'relaxed') and what can’t. What must be complied with are the functional requirements, how that’s done can cause confusion and much debate on these pages and in my office.  

Other paragraphs that are ignored (relaxed) include the provision of property sprinklers instead of life, the provision detection instead of protected corridors and the provision of turning facilities (Have you ever tried to walk horses backwards for more than 20 metres!)

Offline jokar

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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2007, 10:38:29 AM »
As far as I am awared, the Functional Requirement of B1 is the responsibilty of Local Building Control Officers or an Approved Inspector when this is applied.  The relaxation of this part of B1 is for those individuals to consider as part of the Approval Process.  As for enforcers whilst there is no longer any Statutory Bar, the Government Procedural Guidance document makes it clear that they should agree the solutions so that further work will not be required once a building is occupied.

Offline Dinnertime Dave

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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2007, 01:18:04 PM »
Quote from: jokar
As for enforcers whilst there is no longer any Statutory Bar, the Government Procedural Guidance document makes it clear that they should agree the solutions so that further work will not be required once a building is occupied.
That’s the theory anyway, in the last month I’ve visited two premises after the occupiers applied for a licence under the Licensing Act 2003. I believed both premises had been completed as per the submitted plans under Building Regs. However, the licensing drawings showed significant differences in the layout. When I visited the building it was different again with inner inner rooms, no fire warning system plus more. Both have resulted in Enforcement Notices. On contacting the BCO his response was we’ve not carried out any inspections because the occupiers haven’t asked us to and it’s more than 12 months now we can’t do anything. We’re happy for you to sort it out.

I thought I’d agreed a solution and that they would enforce it - Presumably they cashed the cheque.

Offline jokar

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« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2007, 02:03:31 PM »
Nice work if you can get it!!!

fred

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« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2007, 02:12:12 PM »
Quote from: Wiz
Surely we can all see that the problem of securing fire exits to avoid their misuse is a very real and big one. Everything we are all suggesting has been tried and found not to be acceptable to one or the other part of the community. Therefore we need to come up with a better solution than those that presently exist.

It would be great if people on this forum could use their combined knowledge, experience and innovative-thinking, to come up with a real solution to this problem together. Any offers?
If it doesn't happen here it won't happen at all.  I don't think there is a fire forum anywhere else on the web that has such regular submissions from all sides of the fire sector.

The dilemma of safety vs. security in residential care homes has been resolved through technical developments in door hardware - and I'm sure the same can be achieved for supermarkets - it's head down time.

.... but not for me - I'm retiring on Friday so good luck with it

Offline kurnal

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« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2007, 03:21:52 PM »
Fred
Very best wishes on your retirement - keep in touch with the forum though.

And if you would like a chat about life on the other side of the fence would be happy to hear from you anytime.