Author Topic: Adb 5.12  (Read 17163 times)

Offline val

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Adb 5.12
« on: September 20, 2007, 11:38:28 PM »
I am confused.
ADB in section 5.12 requires that in assembly, shop and commercial buildings, rooms designed for more than 60 should have no locks, other than panic devices, conforming to BS 1125 fitted to escape doors.
This flies in the face of, reluctantly accepted practise in every supermarket up and down the land which have, to some degree, magnetic locks fitted.
Did Anthony Burd really intend to ban these devices?

Chris Houston

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Adb 5.12
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2007, 11:58:43 PM »
Is it not the case that Approved Documents are just one way of complying with Building Regs, so they cannot really "ban" anything.

Offline val

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Adb 5.12
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2007, 06:45:00 AM »
Chris,
You are right of course but ADB is often thought of of as "just below legislation". It just seems to me that reality on the ground is so far removed from the suggestion in 5.12, I wonder why it was included.
There was no need to be so clear cut, even specifying purpose groups, if there was no expectation that anyone would take any notice.

I personnally don't like EDL's and feel they are always a, sometimes very small, additional risk. They really don't add much to security anyway. (Has anyone published any figures on how many thefts or assults have been prevented by these egress controls?).
No real problem with access controls as long as egress has copper bottom over-ride, e.g. push bar, etc.
Was anyone party to the thought process when ADB decided to include this approach?

Offline wee brian

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Adb 5.12
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2007, 12:06:23 PM »
why not use mag locks that comply with BS 1125. It aint hard.

Offline val

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« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2007, 12:36:11 PM »
Wee Brian,
??

Do you mean mag locks that deactivate on use of a push bar/pad? Doesn't this rather defeat the object, at least from the supermarkets point of view?

Offline wee brian

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Adb 5.12
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2007, 01:17:02 PM »
Anything else aint allowed - or shouldnt be.....

Offline val

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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2007, 01:32:07 PM »
I agree Brian, I'm just trying to get the background, if there is any, as to why anthony Burd took such a strong line.

This approach doesn't tally with the guidance in the government guides for the Fire Safety Order in Appendix B3, which although it sets a number of caveats, does allow them, (or at least doesn't forbid them).

Offline Dinnertime Dave

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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2007, 01:53:00 PM »
Quote from: val
I personnally don't like EDL's and feel they are always a, sometimes very small, additional risk. They really don't add much to security anyway.
I think the large supermarket chains would disagree; some only put these locks in areas of high value stock, some on every door. I know of one chain that has a 3 second delay between operating the push bar and the door opening, it apparently gives security staff time to move towards the exit.  Another chain requires the person to operate a green break glass after first lifting a flap that is alarmed; again the sounding of the alarm is enough to deter most thieves.  

Where the supermarket is open 24hrs it is also common practice to close additional entrances and exits during the quiet periods.  This is fine providing emergency exits are available nearby, and for those FSO who carry out Building Regulation Consultations know about this practice.

I would recommend to any FSO that they spend a morning with one of the major retailers risk officers to get an insight into how these premises actually work.  

Also, for anybody who has flown to the USA signs on emergency exits in the airports say "On activation of the fire alarm there will be a 30 second delay before the door opens" how many of us would accept that?

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2007, 08:40:06 PM »
Didn't manchester nick somebody for this?

I cant immagine the average store detective would be able to do much in 3 secs!

Chris Houston

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Adb 5.12
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2007, 09:18:56 PM »
I've been to plenty (well known) supermakets that have a policy of delayed opening of fire exits.  The push bar looks normal but actually has a delay.

Offline val

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« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2007, 06:15:12 AM »
Brian,
Manchester defended an appeal against an enforcement notice and won which amounts to much the same thing.

Other posters are right...edl's are everywhere, with or without time delays. I still do not accept that losing a trolley full of cat food makes much dent in the supermarkets profit margin. Most of them have much more problem with their staff. All high value, small items, (and in my areas, big items) are empty boxes or the like.

I was just curious, not about the relative merits of the devices but the unambiguous nature of the entry in ADB. If BRAC really does want BCO's and FRA's to stand up, why didn't they make more of a fuss. Was it really just a case of 'we'll put it in ADB but we know they'll all be fitted anyway'?

Chris Houston

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Adb 5.12
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2007, 08:11:01 AM »
Quote from: val
I still do not accept that losing a trolley full of cat food makes much dent in the supermarkets profit margin.
A trolly full of sirlion steaks, DVDs and single malt scotch can be worth a good few grand.  If you can get a few grand per trolly, you'll do it a few times a day.  While a Wait***** in Egham might not get this happening much, the A*** in Brixton will.

It is a serious problem for them.

Offline jokar

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Adb 5.12
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2007, 09:21:41 AM »
Are not staff trained to assist in evacuation?  Are not the doors signed to the effect that there is a delay?  Do we not allopw covers on BGCP's to discourage false alarms and delay the sounding of the alarm?  Do we not allow Time delay on fire alarm systems?

Try it, train it, supervise it manage it.  If it works then it may be okay.  There is a dleay getting to my final exit everywhere unless I am standing beside it.

Offline Wiz

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Adb 5.12
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2007, 11:16:59 AM »
Quote from: val
Chris,
.........
I personnally don't like EDL's and feel they are always a, sometimes very small, additional risk. They really don't add much to security anyway. (Has anyone published any figures on how many thefts or assults have been prevented by these egress controls?).
No real problem with access controls as long as egress has copper bottom over-ride, e.g. push bar, etc.   ........
I was recently speaking to the caretaker of a local authority community centre who had added 'mag-locks', releasing on fire alarm only, to fire exit doors because they were being used by thieves to make a quick escape from the building, instead of using the guarded front entrance. Evidently, soon after, a thief was caught in the act of stealing a laptop PC and took off at great speed in the direction of the nearest fire exit and jumped up to kick open the panic push bar. The caretaker said it was the greatest joy of his life to see the thief bounce back and land on the floor in a heap at the caretaker's feet because the maglocks had held the doors closed!

Offline AnthonyB

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Adb 5.12
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2007, 08:47:59 PM »
When discussing additional devices, especially delaying devices, on doors with push bars it is important to realise why a push bar is fitted in the first place - it is a panic device, it's use resulting from countless deaths in years gone by not from the fire at all but due to crush injuries & asphyxia during evacuation.

Anything altering the function of the doors defeats the anti panic effect and increases the risk of injury or death and where the fire alarm system is vital in maintaining the panic function of the door by releasing, say, a mag-lock, it should be carefully maintained and managed - also what happens if there is a fault in the system or just part? Very few places seem to test the function of mag-lock relays, overrides, etc and only time will tell as to whether we are fussing about nothing or there is a genuine risk.

This isn't a new problem, except in days gone by it wasn't maglocks added but Redlam & Ashworth bolts (break tube release) added to panic exits with a perceived security issue.
Anthony Buck
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