Fire Exit Sign

[John Dragon]

Fire exit sign with arrow pointing to right, fitted over a door.

This means "go through this door and turn right"  or am I wrong?

A risk assessor has decided that the sign must be replaced with a fire exit with arrow down as he says that my sign means turn right before the door.

My position is that his sign means "go through this door and change level downwards"

My main query is - if an exit sign is fitted over a door, does it mean "go through this door and turn to the direction of the sign"   or    "turn to the direction of the sign before this door"  ?

[Davo]

John

BS5499 pt 4 shows your sign to mean 'progress to the right from here'
The RA sign means 'progress down to the right from here'
Whilst there is no sign for what you want (why?), the nearest is arrow pointing north east.
This has a secondary meaning of 'progress forward and across to the right'.
The other choice is arrow straight up meaning 'progress forward from here'.
It would depend how close the right turn is through the door and whether it is obvious you have to go through the door. perhaps you might need two signs

[CivvyFSO]

I think the risk assessor is after the standard sign for above a door, i.e. arrow vertically down, person running into fridge. If so, that clearly leads you through the door, then a simple relocation of the sign you already have and the problem is solved.

[nearlythere]

People
If you all deliberating the signage what chance has a member of the public in a state of panic?

[kurnal]

One concise explanation can be found here:

http://www.jaliteaaa.co.uk/Guidance2.htm

more here:

http://www.safetysignsatwork.co.uk/legislation.asp

But there has been a very informative previous thread here:

http://www.fire.org.uk/punbb/upload/viewtopic.php?id=2055

[Davo]

John
Kurnal's top link is sound as it is a lift from the BS, the second one covers more about the environment such as veiwing distances, all good stuff.
On a lighter note, I presume your sign has the running man in the white door, this means the same as man running towards white fridge, though some would tell us different!

[nearlythere]

One concise explanation can be found here:

http://www.jaliteaaa.co.uk/Guidance2.htm

more here:

http://www.safetysignsatwork.co.uk/legislation.asp

But there has been a very informative previous thread here:

http://www.fire.org.uk/punbb/upload/viewtopic.php?id=2055

Kurnal.
Would the passengers on a Clapham Omnibus be able to explain the meaning of the signs?

[kurnal]

The passengers on the omnibus would not be likely to be asked.

It neednt get that far because I believe that whatever the problems there may be, my learned friends would not be able to make any more sense of the mess that the safety industry, enforcers, manufacturers  and standards organisations have made of this, than you or I .  

Now ask the passengers on an aeroplane what they understand by an exit sign and they will point to a text only, 25mm red lettering on a white backgound in english without any graphics. In full international use and presumably understood by all?

To answer John Dragons question directly the correct/best?  solution in my opinion is to place a BS5499 sign with an arrow pointing straight ahead (up) over the door and immediately having passed through the door an additional sign pointing to the right.

There are situations where sudden changes of direction can be difficult to sign in a sensible manner, especially for example where it is necessary to turn immediately having passed through a door although there is also a corridor straight ahead. Its a situation that is not well addressed by any of the current approved standards/ regulations  IMO.
Personally I think I would understand the meaning of the sign as John has installed it but there is no  evidence that other people would.

[nearlythere]

To answer John Dragons question directly the correct/best?  solution in my opinion is to place a BS5499 sign with an arrow pointing straight ahead (up) over the door and immediately having passed through the door an additional sign pointing to the right.

Thats way too sensible.

[jokar]

John, where do you go after you pass through the door, as this affects the sign you should have?

[John Dragon]

John, where do you go after you pass through the door, as this affects the sign you should have?

You are now in a square lobby of approx 4 foot x 4 foot and need to turn right immediately through a door that I have similarly marked with a "fire exit arrow right" as (guess what?) you need to go through this door and again turn immediately right and proceed to a final exit.
This place is in serious danger of ending up with more fire exit signs than remaining wall!



Thanks for all input.
John.

[AnthonyB]

I did a straw poll of people, both in the job & not, and most think that if a door has a sign above with a right handed arrow it means 'not this door, go right instead'

Should a door need to be passed through to get to an exit the arrow should point up (although I would not split hairs in reality if it was, as is common, downwards).

Once in the lobby (which is small) if there is no other doors other than the continuation of the route and the door you have just come through then you only require a directional up arrow to go through the second door - you only really would need a right arrow if there was a choice of directions.

Although Pt 4 is rather obsessed with millions of signs you need to use common sense. A good test for clear signs is to get someone not familiar with the building to lead you out via the alternative routes & observe how easy it is for them to follow the route and note any confusion they have

[Tom Sutton]

Agreed AB but the arrow is a supplementary sign and there are times when it is better not to use one, Final Exit for example.

[Jim Creak]

The simple answer is that you are trying to do the job of two signs with one. First get the evacuee through the door then get him to go to the right. This is such a simple form of communication. The arrow up means straight on which is the same convention that you would interpret from an arrow or direction information anywhere else. That is an understood convention.

The Standard BS5499 Part 4 2000 is so simple and is replicated world wide within ISO 7010 and ISO 16069 Safety Wayguidance Standard.

[M,M&M]

O.K what about this scenario. A common area landing with lift & 4 flats, with 1hr fire doors. The wall separating the lobby from the rear stairwell/fire escape route consists of a 1hr fire door and 3.3 sqm of georgian wired glass. The two flat doors furthest from the fire door are 4.5 metres away, on each floor. Should there be a fire exit sign above the fire door to the stairs (if so illuminated, normal or photoluminescent). Or is it so obvious where to go that any sign is unnecessary. If a sign is required above the door, could the arrow be pointing diagonally down to the right, as once you pass through the fire door the stairs are immediately to your right; there is no mounting point in front of you, and if the sign was mounted on the ceiling, you'd be standing directly underneath it. There is wall 2.2 metres to your right, but you'd be already decending the stairs at that point. It was worth joining the forum just to get that lot out of my system. Your help please.