Author Topic: Sheltered Housing Schemes  (Read 27733 times)

Midland Retty

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Sheltered Housing Schemes
« on: April 09, 2008, 10:16:15 AM »
We are seeing a trend in our local area where sheltered housing providers are redesignating their schemes as being "very sheltered" or even "Very very sheltered".

As you will appreciate residents may have been in good health when they first purchased or rented an apartment in a scheme but overtime,as they have got older, their health has deteriorated and outside carers have been brought in to look after them.

Alot of residents seem to have almost 24 hour care, Some residents are bed bound!

It just seems to me very sheltered schemes are in a sense "residential care on the cheap"

In some cases sheltered schemes look more like residential care homes nowadays and this leads me onto my question.

Often sheltered schemes are manned by a warden monday to friday between 9 and 5

In very sheltered schemes do you expect the warden or scheme providers to be looking at assisting the evacuation of bed bound residents or residents who's mobility would impare them from evacuating qucikly enough.

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2008, 10:29:15 AM »
Would depend on level of compartmentation Retty. If they are fire resisting boxes why evacuate, unless the fire is in your box. Is each box a domestic premises? Probably, in my opinion so the Fire Safety Order does not apply inside each box but does apply to the common parts only.

I know in the real world it is not as simple as that. I have come across similar premises and the main problem in my experince is finding an authority who will take responsibility, often lies somewhere beteween Care Standards Act and Housing Act.

Midland Retty

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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2008, 11:16:42 AM »
Hi Phil

I agree with you in principle, particularly where the resident actually owns their own flat within the scheme, but what about those who rent?

The other side of the coin is that we cannot guarantee the fire stopping within the schemes. We have seen some schemes of modular construction, some have common roof voids, some are designed to the flats and masionette standard (ie concrete walls and floors).

You get contractors knocking through walls when addidng or repairing services and not making good fire stopping

Plus we can't control what is actually going in the flat (personal posessions, smoking).

Furthermore "stay put policies" don't mean that residents should stay put indefinately , when a common alarm sounds residents should prepare to be evacuated (ie put on coats, dressing gowns etc) and await further instruction from fire service or warden etc.

Sheltered schemes suit people who dont want the hassle of the upkeep on their own property, want the security of living in a sheltered environment and for pehaps better social interaction. They were designed for generally able bodied people with fair mobility.

Thats all well and good but I think this needs greater debate. We encountered a sheltered scheme with 30 residents, 15 of which were bed bound or wheel chair bound. The scheme operator was proactive in installing provision for hearing / sight impaired residents, but mobility impairments seem to be forgotten.

In a nursing home with a true "stay put policy" we would expect every compartment to be 60 minutes FR with a member of staff present with the patient.

But shelterd schemes mostly have 30 mins FR and we can't have a situation where fire crews are trying to rescue 15 residents

What level of responsibility / control regards to this should the sheltered operators have?

Clevelandfire

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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2008, 05:57:37 PM »
If theyre renting an apartment I feel its the duty of the sheltered accomodation operators to lok after them and they have already assumed duty of care if they have fitted measures for hearing or visually impaired persons so why any different for mobility impaired or bed bound residents

Offline jokar

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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2008, 07:54:52 PM »
I would speak to CSCI, if the "owners" are providing 24 hour care to soem residents then they may well be redesignated to a care facility.  It does seem to be care on the cheap, either way, FSO or RA you will need to ensure that the RP is fully aware of what differences are to be expected in fire safety standards for the differing models.

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2008, 08:51:32 PM »
Quote from: Midland Retty
What level of responsibility / control regards to this should the sheltered operators have?
Lots in my opinion Retty, as you correctly point out, often this is residential care on the cheap. I hate to revert to this stance but I think we need some case law. No doubt there will be fire deaths as a result of this lack of control/care and then we may move forward.

Offline William 29

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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2008, 11:06:38 PM »
I have 2 quick points to make.

1.  I have had experience recently of 2 “very sheltered” housing schemes also referred to as “extra care” facilities; both properties are part of a national chain.  Both are large converted houses into appox. 12 “dwellings”.  In both cases the wardens have been removed (this has been done in all properties UK wide) for reasons to do with the working time directive.

In short the FRA’s we conducted in both premises stated that the removal of the wardens was an intolerable risk (some “residents” could not self evacuate) and that they should be reinstated or fit residential sprinklers.  Neither could be done due to cost and both premises are in the process of being sold.

2.  Phil B, are you saying that the FSO DOES NOT apply to the flat/dwelling as I know of one Fire Authority that would challenge this and would enforce certain fire alarm provisions.  E.g. L2 fire alarm system throughout with a heat detector just inside each flat and a Grade C 5839 Pt 6 smoke detector within the flat itself.

Clevelandfire

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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2008, 01:09:26 AM »
Quote from: William 29
2.  Phil B, are you saying that the FSO DOES NOT apply to the flat/dwelling as I know of one Fire Authority that would challenge this and would enforce certain fire alarm provisions.  E.g. L2 fire alarm system throughout with a heat detector just inside each flat and a Grade C 5839 Pt 6 smoke detector within the flat itself.
William you miss the point PhilB is trying to make. L2 Grade C has always been enforced. Fire Authorities can do that (they say it is to protect the commons MOE) and not only that it is in Government RRO the sleeping guide!

The point made is regarding assisted evacuation. In a care home service users dont self evacuate, it is the duty of staff to assist them. What Midland Retty is asking, quite sensibly in my opinion, is that many sheltered housing schemes are so close to residential care homes now (or even nursing homes) should it not be the case that wardens are on site 24 / 7 to assist in evacuation? or should additional fire safety measures be installed to protect the bed bound?.

One way these sheltered schemes have gone under the radar is to allow third parties to provide the domicillary care provided to the residents. One part of me feels this is deliberate. Another part of me feels im being unfair in saying that.

Also MR asks whether or not a duty of care is required where residents rent an apartment (as some do). Most residents own their own apartment / flat and that becomes a very grey area and I think PhilB is right in his assumption that the RRO would not apply. That said lets not forget these places have common areas. What if a resident is stuck in one of the common areas when the alarm activates?

This is a very big can of worms and I firmly believe the crap will hit the fan one of these days. Test case alert!
On one hand some residents need help in evacuating in on the other sheltered housing is supposed to be no different than Grandma living in her own house.

I just wonder if anyone who designed these places realised the residents would grow old and their health would deteriorate.

Clevelandfire

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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2008, 01:12:49 AM »
Quote from: William 29
I have 2 quick points to make.

1.  I have had experience recently of 2 “very sheltered” housing schemes also referred to as “extra care” facilities; both properties are part of a national chain.  Both are large converted houses into appox. 12 “dwellings”.  In both cases the wardens have been removed (this has been done in all properties UK wide) for reasons to do with the working time directive.

In short the FRA’s we conducted in both premises stated that the removal of the wardens was an intolerable risk (some “residents” could not self evacuate) and that they should be reinstated or fit residential sprinklers.  Neither could be done due to cost and both premises are in the process of being sold.
You are bang on the money there William

Offline kurnal

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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2008, 07:28:11 AM »
Does anyone know where we may find the official meaning and interpretation of the terms "Extra care" and "sheltered housing"

There appears to be a huge variation in terms of the actual service levels provided by local authorities and private operators ranging  from "Zero care" and "couldnt care less"  through to a valuable service with good supervision and care and support available.

I have found definitions on the following links but the fundamental problem of which design standard to apply and therefore the evacuation strategy to adopt remain a very grey area.

http://www.housingcare.org/jargon-extra-care-housing.aspx

http://www.housingcare.org/jargon-sheltered-housing.aspx

Midland Retty

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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2008, 10:15:31 AM »
Thanks for all your replies / help so far gents.

It seems that we all feel this is a potential problem, and as Phil points out we will probably need case law for definative answers.

Offline William 29

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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2008, 10:13:19 PM »
Quote from: Clevelandfire
Quote from: William 29
2.  Phil B, are you saying that the FSO DOES NOT apply to the flat/dwelling as I know of one Fire Authority that would challenge this and would enforce certain fire alarm provisions.  E.g. L2 fire alarm system throughout with a heat detector just inside each flat and a Grade C 5839 Pt 6 smoke detector within the flat itself.
William you miss the point PhilB is trying to make. L2 Grade C has always been enforced. Fire Authorities can do that (they say it is to protect the commons MOE) and not only that it is in Government RRO the sleeping guide!



Also MR asks whether or not a duty of care is required where residents rent an apartment (as some do). Most residents own their own apartment / flat and that becomes a very grey area and I think PhilB is right in his assumption that the RRO would not apply. That said lets not forget these places have common areas. What if a resident is stuck in one of the common areas when the alarm activates?

This is a very big can of worms and I firmly believe the crap will hit the fan one of these days. Test case alert!
On one hand some residents need help in evacuating in on the other sheltered housing is supposed to be no different than Grandma living in her own house.

I just wonder if anyone who designed these places realised the residents would grow old and their health would deteriorate.
I do understand Phil B's point I was just pointing out the some fire authorities would challenge that in sheltered housing that the individual flat does not come under the RRFSO based on the fact that there are shared facilities I guess.  I know what the sleeping guide says re AFD as it also says that the guide only applies to the common parts.  My point being that this is open to challenge and as several have said will only be decided by a test case in law........

I am not sure about when you say the fire authority enforcing a part 6 detector in the dwelling is to protect the M of E? when this would only sound in the flat of origin?

Clevelandfire

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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2008, 10:57:25 PM »
Quote from: William 29
I am not sure about when you say the fire authority enforcing a part 6 detector in the dwelling is to protect the M of E? when this would only sound in the flat of origin?
resident falls alseep on chair, has left chips in chip pan which has overheated, alarm sounds, wakes up resident, who call fire services, fire service put out fire before MOE are compromised

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2008, 09:48:22 AM »
old lady living in a flat....... whats the difference?

Midland Retty

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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2008, 10:43:27 AM »
Standard of construction / level of fire resistance perhaps?