New take on an Old story. Fire extinguishers in flats.

[davidandrewsuk]

http://www.means-of-escape.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29

Any of your guys heard about this one?

Its a bit mad dont you think ?

If someone tried to take fire extinguishers out of my flats i'd tell em where to go!!!!


P.S Theres a pole on the MOE site, can something similar be started here ? Would be interesting to see what the majority feel on this one.
If not register there and cast your vote.

[Big T]

It's only mad from the perspective that residents are getting the hump about having extinguisher removed. There is no requirement for extinguishers in the communal areas of a block of flats, just as there is no requirement for a communal fire alarm system or (in some circumstances) communal emergency lighting.

Why provide them to cover someone elses (residents) risk. Communal areas must have a tolerable risk without the requirement for extinguishers which are an expensive, easily stolen or vandaliseable piece of fire equipment.

The recomendation would have come from the result of a fire risk assessment and the assessor believed there is no requirement for extinguishers. Of the many blocks I manage, none (apart from sheltered and supported schemes) require extinguishers.

I agree it was foolhardy to remove these without suitable consultation with the residents but the removal of the extinguishers has not jeopardised anybodys well being whatsoever.

[kurnal]

I cant see the point in getting excited about this issue, the argument may have been relevant to this individual case and hyping up to hysterical proportions in this way does not help anyone. For example why quote BS5588 part 12 in the article and yet not mention the most relevant guidance document  ie   BS5588 part 1 section 7 ?

[Midland Retty]

Nope I don't think Its mad at all frankly.

Residents should not tackle fire. Get out Stay Out Get the Fire Brigade Out.

Blocks of flats are built with adequate compartmentalisation so that if a fire does occur it should be contained to the affected flat, giving chance for the fire service to be called, arrive and begin dealing with it.

Having read the article in question it implies that most buildings wouldnt not be habitable or structurally safe after a fire (which isnt necessarily the case. An element of redecoration maybe required but rarely are structural components badly damaged in purpose built flats - In the case of HMO's this maybe slightly different)

The article suggests that the building could be totally destroyed by fire (ive never known a block of flats be totally gutted following a fire, and if this were to happen I'd have to question the level of fire resistance prevailing at the time of construction etc)

It also implies that a resident aged 103 should use a fire extinguisher. Dont be silly!

Im afraid this seems like yet another bit of propaganda originating from a certain sector of the fire safety  industry.

There is a lot of deliberate misinformation put out into the public domain designed to cause hysteria like this. As Kurnal says it doesn't help (accept for lining the pockets of certain suppliers).

[messy]

The residents who have got their knickers in a twist over this issue will just have to rely on the extinguishers they have supplied in their own flats won't they??!! -

[Clevelandfire]

Indeed they will yes

[davidandrewsuk]

Still craziness imo.

There is a requirement for extinguishers in communal areas. They are supposed to be located on escape routes such as stairwells etc so should there be a fire on the route, due to a resident having stored boxes or arson or something, there is means to tackle it and escape safely.

I think its simple.
If all the fantastic safety measures that people have harped on about as being sufficient enough to warrant the removal of the extinguishers should fail or not in fact be sufficient what do you have left? Nothing if you have no extinguisher.

Insurance companies will pay £5000 to maintain them for petes sake. Why not have them ?

[nearlythere]

Still craziness imo.

There is a requirement for extinguishers in communal areas. They are supposed to be located on escape routes such as stairwells etc so should there be a fire on the route, due to a resident having stored boxes or arson or something, there is means to tackle it and escape safely.

I think its simple.
If all the fantastic safety measures that people have harped on about as being sufficient enough to warrant the removal of the extinguishers should fail or not in fact be sufficient what do you have left? Nothing if you have no extinguisher.

Insurance companies will pay £5000 to maintain them for petes sake. Why not have them ?

David
This is an old chestnut about why extinguishers are provided. If, as you suggest, they are provided to tackle a fire on the escape route and allow persons to escape safely, why are they not located at the start of escape routes?

[Midland Retty]

If all the fantastic safety measures that people have harped on about as being sufficient enough to warrant the removal of the extinguishers should fail or not in fact be sufficient what do you have left? Nothing if you have no extinguisher.

For years now fire extinguishers have been ommitted from the common areas of blocks of Flats

To appreciate why you firstly need to understand the in way blocks of flats are constructed and the passive fire safety built into them.

Can you give me one instance where a block of flats have been totally gutted to the point where it has been rendered permenantly unhabitable?

I think you are liking this to say an office block which doesn't have the same ammount of compartmentation as a block of flats.

At the end of the day extinguishers should only be operated by persons properly trained on how to use them. Its not just about selecting the right extinguisher either.

You have to condition people to be able to realise when a fire is becoming too big for them to handle, to ensure they always maintain an escape route between them and the fire etc.

Small bin fires are a classic scenario I often hear banded about - "people should be allowed to put out something the size of a bin fire"...........Well whats in the bin? an empty aerosol cannister? what is the bin made out of?  plastics which give off nasty fumes and smoke?

You can replace property, you can't replace humans. Yes by all means be proactive in terms of life and property protection but lets not get hysterical about this. Fire extinguishers may prevent a small fire turning into a big one, but in real life it isn't always as simple as that and priority is to get out!

[jokar]

Since when have extinguishers been used to protect ecsape  routes?  It is a misnoma put about by extinguisher sellers.  ADB makes it quite clear that the functional requirement is for detection and warning and means of escape, nowhere does extinguishers get a mention.  Means of escape are sterile areas and as such should not have any combustible in them.  Most extinguishers are located in tenanted areas for trained staff to use when required and if possible to use.  They are not a tool for anyone to use.

[Midland Retty]

Since when have extinguishers been used to protect ecsape  routes?  It is a misnoma put about by extinguisher sellers.  ADB makes it quite clear that the functional requirement is for detection and warning and means of escape, nowhere does extinguishers get a mention.  Means of escape are sterile areas and as such should not have any combustible in them.  Most extinguishers are located in tenanted areas for trained staff to use when required and if possible to use.  They are not a tool for anyone to use.

Spot on Jokar

[val]

We very are turning into a nation of H & S obsessed wimps. Why shouldn't fit and able people, (or those with disabilities who may benefit from them even more), have the opportunity to put out the small bin fire?
This mantra of training, training, training is like some Orwellian nightmare. Many people have and will continue to deal with small fires without formal, accredited, expensive training just like people cross the road and a host of other slightly risky things.

[John Dragon]

We very are turning into a nation of H & S obsessed wimps. Why shouldn't fit and able people, (or those with disabilities who may benefit from them even more), have the opportunity to put out the small bin fire?
This mantra of training, training, training is like some Orwellian nightmare. Many people have and will continue to deal with small fires without formal, accredited, expensive training just like people cross the road and a host of other slightly risky things.

A voice of common sense - good man!

[jokar]

Eric did not write stuff that gives you nightmares, it was sensible mainly political literature.  Speaking of which, I believe it is the Government who have the insistence of training and development of education for us all.  Let anyone deal with whatever but don't allow the cost of that to be borne by others.  If you want to protect yourself in your domestic delling and purchase an extinguisher so be it, but do not ask others to do that for you and then when it is not available as the thing has been emptied or has been sold off or you get injured\as you do not know what you are doing blame the purchaser.

[John Dragon]

Eric did not write stuff that gives you nightmares, it was sensible mainly political literature.  Speaking of which, I believe it is the Government who have the insistence of training and development of education for us all.  Let anyone deal with whatever but don't allow the cost of that to be borne by others.  If you want to protect yourself in your domestic delling and purchase an extinguisher so be it, but do not ask others to do that for you and then when it is not available as the thing has been emptied or has been sold off or you get injured\as you do not know what you are doing blame the purchaser.

Why stop at extinguishers?
Why should a landlord have to fork out for fire alarms but not extinguishers?
If extinguishers are not necessary in flats, why are they necessary in hotels? factories?
Who the hell is Eric?