Author Topic: Fire Alarm  (Read 25526 times)

Offline Mushy

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« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2008, 02:01:12 PM »
Just got this by googling 'Safety Signs and Signals Regulations....doesn't mention battery back up though

Fire warning systems
Where evacuation from buildings is needed, the Regulations require the fire alarm signal to be continuous. Fire alarms conforming to BS 5839: Part 1:1988 Fire detection and alarm systems for buildings do not need changing, nor do other acceptable means such as manually operated sounders, eg rotary gongs or hand bells.

http://www.firesafe.org.uk/html/fsequip/firesign5.htm

Offline Tom Sutton

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« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2008, 02:41:19 PM »
Do not trust all you find on the internet for this one I am trying desperately to find out where I got that information from. The page was revised some time ago as the result of a major debate with Jim Creak on this forum.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Davo

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« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2008, 04:57:35 PM »
Wiz

The bits in quotes are exact.
The guidance bits 105-114 I could post if I knew how, we are talking an A4 page but was general stuff not relevant to the question. I quoted all the relevant bits, I told you they were hidden!
Also Wiz remember the regs title- Safety Signs and SIGNALS regs 1996, hope this answers that bit.


Davo

Offline nearlythere

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« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2008, 05:05:43 PM »
Can someone point me to the bit which states that a fire alarm signal is a requirement under the Regulations please?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Tom Sutton

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« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2008, 06:15:42 PM »
Quote from: Mushy
Just got this by googling 'Safety Signs and Signals Regulations....doesn't mention battery back up though

Fire warning systems
Where evacuation from buildings is needed, the Regulations require the fire alarm signal to be continuous. Fire alarms conforming to BS 5839: Part 1:1988 Fire detection and alarm systems for buildings do not need changing, nor do other acceptable means such as manually operated sounders, eg rotary gongs or hand bells.

http://www.firesafe.org.uk/html/fsequip/firesign5.htm
I found the source http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg184.htm  Phew!
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline AnthonyB

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« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2008, 09:27:31 PM »
During recent years there has been a steady stream of questions to BFPSA
about the continued acceptability of mains powered fire alarm systems with
no standby power supply. Such systems were installed in large quantities
in the 1950s and 60s and were subsequently phased out, mainly as a result
of the Fire Precautions Act 1972 and the requirements of BS5839-1
While the number of these systems still operational is rapidly reducing,
owners of such systems that are still performing satisfactorily are often
reluctant to replace them. In most cases, however, they no longer comply
with the requirements of current legislation.
The Health and Safety (Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996 relate to the
requirements of safety signs and signals used at work.
Clause 2, Interpretation, of these Regulations states within Section (1) the
following text:
““fire safety sign” means a sign (including an illuminated sign or an acoustic
signal) which –
(i) provides information of escape routes and emergency exits in
case of fire;
(ii) provides information on the identification or location of fire
fighting equipment; or
(iii) gives warning in case of fire”
As a fire alarm may be signalled by a visual or audible signal, such devices
are included within the Regulations.
Schedule 1, Part 1, Section 8 of the Regulations states:
“8 Signs requiring some form of power must be provided with a guaranteed
emergency supply in the event of a power cut, unless the hazard has
thereby been eliminated.”
Page 2 of 2
By taking the requirements of these clauses into account, the use of mains powered fire
alarm systems with no standby power supply is not acceptable if they are provided as a
means of meeting health and safety requirements in a place of work. In such places, fire
alarm systems complying with the requirements of BS5839-1: 1988 or 2002 would
normally be recommended.
FURTHER SOURCES OF INFORMATION
The Health and Safety (Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996 (Statutory Instrument 1996
No. 341).
Anthony Buck
Owner & Fire Safety Consultant at Fire Wizard


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Offline Mushy

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« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2008, 09:51:19 AM »
Thanks TW and AnthonyB

Blimey talk about confusing...


http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg184.htm ...says you don't need to change it

and Anthony B's post says you do!

I think I need a lie dowm :)

Midland Retty

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« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2008, 12:25:00 PM »
Quote from: Mushy
Thanks TW and AnthonyB

Blimey talk about confusing...


http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg184.htm ...says you don't need to change it

and Anthony B's post says you do!

I think I need a lie dowm :)
Go rest your weary head Mushy

I think this boils down to one simple fact.

Do you or do you not want the fire alarm to continue to be capable of operationeven if there is mains failure

I think in all but a few cases the answer would be yes. Risk Assessment time!

Offline nearlythere

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« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2008, 01:14:04 PM »
Quote from: Mushy
Thanks TW and AnthonyB

Blimey talk about confusing...


http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg184.htm ...says you don't need to change it

and Anthony B's post says you do!

I think I need a lie dowm :)
It also says that you don't neccessarily need it at all.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Tom Sutton

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« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2008, 03:10:33 PM »
Quote from: Mushy
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg184.htm says you don't need to change it and Anthony B's post says you do!  :)
I think AntB is saying mains powered fire alarm systems with no standby power supply no longer comply with the requirements of current legislation. Also the system would not comply with BS 5839: Part 1:1988/2002.

The HSE says any system that complies with BS 5839: Part 1:1988 does not need changing because in my opinion it does comply with the regulations.

Therefore by inference any systems that do not comply with BS 5839: Part 1:1988/2002, needs changing because it does not comply with the regulations.

Maybe  :rolleyes:
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline Martin

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« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2008, 03:46:25 PM »
I disagree. A mains power only fire alarm falls short of the legal minimum required by the Safety Signs Regns. A BS 5839 installation should exceed this legal minimum.  

It is not logical (Captain) to then say only BS 5839 is adequate. A back up power supply will meet the legal requirement. It may make more sense to go for a BS5839 but is not the only way to meet the  legal minimum.

Davo

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« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2008, 04:01:40 PM »
Wiz
for info, managed to paste exact wording (use the tenner for a beer will you otherwise I might think you are a bit of a skinflint)

What is a fire safety sign? (regulation 2)
90 A fire safety sign is defined in regulation 2(1) as:
a sign (including an illuminated sign or an acoustic signal) which:
(a) provides information on escape routes and emergency exits in case of fire;
(b) provides information on the identification or location of fire-fighting equipment; or
(c) gives warning in case of fire.

When are fire safety signs required?
91 Duties on employers to provide these signs will mostly arise from the Fire
Precautions Act 1971 and other fire legislation. The effect here of the Safety
Signs Regulations will in most cases be to describe the types of sign which may
be used. Often the enforcing authority for fire safety will determine where to
locate the signs (eg if a fire certificate is required). In other cases employers will
need to provide signs depending on the outcome of their assessment of risks to
health and safety (see paragraphs 12-15). If changes to existing signs are
proposed and a fire certificate is in force, check first with your enforcing
authority responsible for issuing the certificate.




Fire alarms
105 The aim of a fire alarm is to ensure that people in the workplace are
alerted to any outbreak of fire well before it becomes life threatening. The
warning system sets in motion a planned routine for evacuating the premises.

106 Fire alarms are included in the term .acoustic signal.. The definition in
the Regulations is .a coded sound signal which is released and transmitted by
a device designed for that purpose, without the use of a human or artificial
voice.. In practice it is important that the acoustic signal for a fire alarm:
(a) has a sound level considerably higher than the level of ambient noise so
that the warning signal can be heard throughout the workplace (see also
paragraph 71);
(b) is easily recognisable and distinct from other acoustic signals and ambient
noise; and
(c) is continuous for evacuation (but see also paragraph 112).

107 The method of giving warning of fire will vary from workplace to
workplace. However, it needs to be suitable for the premises. In some cases,
such as small workplaces, the fire alarm may consist of manually operated
sounders (eg rotary gongs or handbells). In larger workplaces it may take the
form of an electrical fire-warning system (eg conforming to BS 5839 Fire
detection and alarm systems in buildings).

108 The Regulations permit incorporation of a public address system with the
warning signal, which may also be accompanied by an illuminated sign (eg a
flashing light).

Guidance
109 Experience has shown that good notation is a particularly effective aid to
safe and speedy evacuation. Therefore, in workplaces where members of the
public are present, it can be a significant help if the warning signal for evacuation
is supplemented by use of the public address system to give clear and concise
instructions. To be effective, messages will normally need to be prepared in
advance and in some cases in appropriate languages. The fire warning system
needs to activate this message. Ideally this will cancel any amplified music,
soundtrack or other announcements. Similarly, if a public address system is used
to transmit the alarm signal, or can be incorporated with the signal, it will need to
take priority and override other facilities of the system. Further information is
given in BS 5839. In addition BS 7443 Specification for sound systems for emergency
purpose11 provides advice on sound systems for emergency purposes.

110 Ensure that a sounder, or loudspeaker of a public address system, is not
located in such a position that communication with the fire brigade is hindered,
eg too near a reception area from which the emergency call may be made.

111 Many fire warning systems are single stage, ie when the alarm sounds
simultaneous evacuation takes place. However, some large workplaces may
have a two-stage warning system.

112 In these systems a continuous evacuation signal is given in certain parts
of the workplace, ie those near the origin of the fire, while an intermittent or
alert signal meaning .stand-by. is received elsewhere. These systems allow a
progressive or phased evacuation of the workplace so that congestion along
emergency escape routes is minimised.

113 If a staged fire warning system is being considered it is advisable to check
with your enforcing authority for fire safety before installation.

114 Your enforcing authority for fire safety (see paragraph 115) may specify
certain maintenance requirements for your tire warning system, but in general all
fire alarms will need to be regularly maintained. This is necessary to ensure they
work properly and can be heard throughout the workplace. For manually operated
sounders (see paragraph 107) this is a relatively simple task where the necessary
general skills could well be .in-house.. With respect to electrical fire warning
systems, however, it is important that they are serviced by someone who is
competent to carry out the work; that is, someone with the appropriate skills,
qualifications and/or experience. Your installer may be able to advise about
necessary maintenance, alternatively contact your enforcing authority for fire safety.
Enforcing authority for fire safety

115 Further advice on the application of these Regulations to fire safety signs
can be obtained from your enforcing authority for fire safety, that is, from fire
officers, environmental health officers or building control officers of local
authorities, or in cases where the Fire Certificates (Special Premises)
Regulations 1976 apply(a), HSE inspectors.

Information, instruction and training
116 Ensure that your employees fully understand the meaning of fire safety
signs in the workplace and how to give warning in case of fire. Supervisors and
others who have been given particular responsibility in an emergency need to
be clear about the action to take if the fire alarm is sounded.
(a) These Regulations deal with the provision of fire certificates at certain specified premises
and are enforced by the Health and Safety Executive.

Hope this solves the puzzle!

davo

Offline AnthonyB

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« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2008, 04:47:21 PM »
The HSE weblink is to on line guidance, not the text of the statute. And it only says BS5839 systems need not be replaced - as mains only systems do not comply with BS 5839 they are not included here and as they do not have secondary power must go
Anthony Buck
Owner & Fire Safety Consultant at Fire Wizard


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Offline Tom Sutton

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« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2008, 08:27:51 PM »
Quote from: Martin
I disagree. A mains power only fire alarm falls short of the legal minimum required by the Safety Signs Regns. A BS 5839 installation should exceed this legal minimum.  

It is not logical (Captain) to then say only BS 5839 is adequate. A back up power supply will meet the legal requirement. It may make more sense to go for a BS5839 but is not the only way to meet the legal minimum.
Point taken but how would you provided this back up power supply. UPS using batteries or generator and would it be economically viable also is this technically possible.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Chris Houston

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Fire Alarm
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2008, 08:55:17 PM »
In my opinion, AnthonyB's answer is more specific and detailed than the web link.  And he is correct.  

The law on this matter is quite simple really - fire alarms in places of work must have a battery backup.