B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation

[Clevelandfire]

When I did the business case for this business 5 years ago the biggest risk I identified was government intervention.  Guess what I was absolutely correct.  I hadn’t identified what would happen but it was clear 5 years ago with the way things were heading with the nanny state that they would hit us some how.

Just bear in mind that at the moment in this area (and possibly others) the Health and Safety departments (including fire service enforcement) are almost held in ridicule (which is wrong as the fire service does a magnificent job and society is in their debt).  For instance when guests visit our neighbours B&B and see the fire escape (‘for their safety’) and are told why it is there they are initially incredulous and then bemused – Why?. Ah but you say – they won’t be laughing when they want to use it when there is a fire.  Absolutely correct.  The problem is that the probability of a fire there is so low it is superfluous and over the top.  This is just one example of the madness of our current health and safety philosophy that brings the whole serious business into disrepute.

I would like to point out that most of us B&B owners are not money grabbing mercenaries as some of you have suggested.  For instance we rented our rooms out to enable us to afford to live in a beautiful part of the country.  Along with our other business we work 7 days a week 364 days a year (we have Xmas day off) and usually work 12-14 hours a day.  Our income last year put us on about £5 per hour (less than we pay our cleaners).  We don’t get a state pension, we don’t get sick leave, we don’t get maternity leave, we don’t get 3,4,5 weeks paid holiday a year, in fact the last time I had more than a day off (Xmas day) was 6 years ago.  We are not asking for sympathy, it is our choice. I am just stating facts.  We use to enjoy running our B&B even if the profits were small. In return people use to love coming here.

Who will volunteer to take e-mails from all the guests we are now turning away.  I am sure most of them would be quite glad to give you their thoughts on the matter.  At the moment I am giving them the e-mail addresses of the Fire Safety Minister and the DCLG Fire Safety Policy Team and suggesting they pass on the same comments as they are giving me.

If you believe that people will pay an extra £10 a night for a small B&B that has all the required fire precautions against one that doesn’t, you don’t understand the British public.  

As I am obviously getting no further with this one-sided argument and the Law is the Law and we will be following it (by closing), this will be my last post.  I think it is just such a shame that a part of our society will be lost over the next few years due to over zealous rules and regulations (not just fire).  It’s a sad indictment of society in general and the path we seem to have trod over the last few years.  

I am grateful to all of you for an insight into your world (its not a world I wish to live in but that, at the moment, is my choice).  I hope I have given you a small understanding of my world.  My feeling is that the level of health and safety in ‘this country’ has now gone too far (for society at the moment) and there is likely to be a significance backlash in the coming years.  I may be wrong. I just hope for my sanity, others in small businesses and the next generation’s sanity that I am not.  People in the Health and Safety Industry seem to have forgotten that we humans have been managing Risk at an individual level for 0000’s of years.  We may need help here and there, and there are things that have been introduced over the years that have saved a lot of our lives (seat belts in cars, better fire retardant furniture etc). Tinkering at the edges as we seem to be doing at the moment is just damaging our society not saving any major number of lives.  What are the big killers?  Let’s address them better. The problem is, do we have the political will to do so?  Tinkering at the edges has little or no political fall-out but makes governments look as though they are doing something. Resolving the big issues comes with big political headaches and is therefore put to one side.

Please note that all my comments have been about small B&B’s. That is homes that have less than three letting rooms (which were exempt under the old rules).

My final heart felt plea is - Please let us run our own lives but be there when we need you (a contradiction which I am sure you will all ridicule).

Bye and thank you again for this insight.

Oscar winning performance well done. Boo hoo

You won't accept a perfectly sensible argument. Instead you have over dramatised the whole thing. Work 365 days a year do you? if its that bad why not do something else? As you say you do it because it allows you to live in the part of the world you want to live - so why not protect something you cherish so much?
We have told you time and timew again fire precautions wont break the bank in the way you suggest
You wont have to raise prices to cover the cost of these precautions as you suggest
Im afraid there is no talking to people like you. Ive never ever said that every last B&B landlord is mercernary. Take your ball home then if you don't want to respond to sensible debate. It's no loss I'd rather talk to a landlord who has genuine concerns rather than made up guests alledgedly thinking fire precautions are over the top. Hiden agenda time again. Would you give us your address to confirm you area genuine B&B owner because im having my doubts from some of the things you have said.

[FSO]

Well said Clevelandfire. I could not have put it better myself.

[Midland Retty]

Hi Swaapc

Its a shame you will no longer be contributing to the thread, hopefully you will still keep an eye on the latest posts on the subject.

The precautions required to help you comply with the RRO should not cost the earth and I can't see why you would have to put up your prices to your customers / guests.

Based on the sensible comments made to you here on this thread would you not feel confident enough to revisit the issue with the local fire officer concerned and if required challenege that officer if you felt his or her requirements were overburdensome?

Furthermore it pays to shop around to find best prices on the products or services you will need to aid you to comply. You even said you might be able to get funding for it in an earlier post.

Your insurance company may offer reductions on your premium if you have more safety precautions installed. Not only they give protection in terms of life safety but also building protection too.

Its obvious you have lost heart with this debate. I don't know what it is like to run a B&B but I do hope the advice given here will make it easier for you to comply without the need to close your business.

[FSO]

I have also never heard of 'paperwork' not being raised in time. It takes about an hour to serve a prohibition correctly.

[Chris Houston]

Ladies and Gents,

I would like to request site users to please consdier the choice of words and language they use before posting.  Disagreement and debate is fine, but please try and keep it polite.

Chris
Forum Admin.

[David Weston]

Nearlythere and others: with respect, I don't think it is very constructive to be abusive to Swaapc.  You clearly disagree with him, but he is naturally passionate about his business and very upset to have got to the stage of closing it down.

I hope we can keep the debate on an informative and constructive basis: as B&B owners, we should all remember that fire officers have seen horrendous results from fires and are very naturally affected by those; likewise, fire officers and consultants should acknowledge that those whose homes are also their small B&B businesses are naturally very passionate - occasionally emotional - about anything thet see as unfair, over the top or even a threat.

Let's try to focus on the practicalities and how we can together achieve what I think we all want, and what the RRFSO intended: a proportionate, risk-based fire safety regime where the very smallest "domestic premises" businesses instal domestic-type fire precautions to ensure appropriate levels of fire safety for their guests, without needing to substantially compromise the "family home" nature of the premises, which after all is what attracts guests to family B&Bs.


Post edited by Forum Admin to remove quotation of unacceptable language that has also been removed. [/i]

[Thomas Brookes]

I wonder how many of the same guests would still be so supportive if whilst at the B&B there was a fire and their partner or child burned to death because there was not a fire alarm or smoke detector in the building.

As for small B&B never have fires I could take you to at least three in my area that I know of that have had small fires, I can take you to a site that was totally gutted by fire (they only had 2 letting rooms).
I can apriciate that we see two different sides of the fence, you see from your side where you have never had a fire & unfortunately we see it from the other side where most of us have been involved in one way or another with fires where in the worse cases people have died. And whilst I can see your side that we run a great B&B and have never had a fire and you do not intend to have one. How ever there are more fires involving private home than commercial premises, Why is that?.
Possibly because commercial premises have to comply with fire regulations etc and domestic homes do not.

Heres a quick one how many of the country cottage B&B's have their electrics checked every 4-5 years or portable appliances checked, not many I would imagine. Electrics are one of the biggest fire starters in this country.
I wonder how many phone calls a guest house would get if they advertised the fact that they do not comply with any fire safety regulations because they are sure they will not have a fire. I wish I had those powers of knowing where fire will or wont start I could make a fortune, perhaps if all buildings rented out two rooms it would give them the magical powers of not having a fire. Some one should have told the Queen to rent out a couple of rooms as a B&B it would have saved Windsor Castle having a fire.

[nearlythere]

Nearlythere and others: with respect, I don't think it is very constructive to be abusive to Swaapc.  You clearly disagree with him, but he is naturally passionate about his business and very upset to have got to the stage of closing it down.

I hope we can keep the debate on an informative and constructive basis: as B&B owners, we should all remember that fire officers have seen horrendous results from fires and are very naturally affected by those; likewise, fire officers and consultants should acknowledge that those whose homes are also their small B&B businesses are naturally very passionate - occasionally emotional - about anything thet see as unfair, over the top or even a threat.

Let's try to focus on the practicalities and how we can together achieve what I think we all want, and what the RRFSO intended: a proportionate, risk-based fire safety regime where the very smallest "domestic premises" businesses instal domestic-type fire precautions to ensure appropriate levels of fire safety for their guests, without needing to substantially compromise the "family home" nature of the premises, which after all is what attracts guests to family B&Bs.


Post edited by Forum Admin to remove quotation of unacceptable language that has also been removed. [/i]

Agreed but I think it would strengthen the case for B&B owners if some would approach the matter with a view to compling with legislation and at the same time lobbying for a degree of reasonability in the application of standards rather than taking the view that no standards at all are neccessary.
I have suggested that interlinked domestic detection and SC domestic doors could be considered reasonable where accommodation is limited, say up to 3 bedrooms, and travel distances, like with small shops and offices, are short.
There is also little point in blaming Inspecting Officers and Consultants. They do not write guidance or the law.
Some would suggest that Risk Assessors should use their professional judgement and recommend the installation of these less than normal standards and they can do that. But it would a disservice to all and sundry to do so knowing fine well that the first time an IO carries out an audit he/she will not accept what he/she finds.
It is a national issue which needs a national resolution.

[Alan Keith]

Electrics are one of the biggest fire starters in this country.

Maybe so, but can anyone advise what types of fault and/or appliance is the cause of most fires and is it known whether specific kinds of appliance have caused a fire.   Likewise, is it not the case that certain types of equipment have never caused a fire?

As an ex-engineer I have some technical knowledge but do not have the benefit of the fire service's experience.   What I do believe to be true is that certain types of equipment are much more likely to go upthan others.   One is immersion heater wiring which has a continuous high load causing, over time, degradation of connections and insulation.  If inflammable material is nearby a fire can be caused.   At the other end, a bedside light is unlikely to develop an electrical fault that could cause a fire.   A kettle might overheat if switched on without water, but has a safety device that breaks the circuit.  It is unlikely to be switched on while the room user is asleep.   Constructive comment on these causes of fire would be useful as if only inherently safe equipment is in use there is virtually no likelyhood of a fire being caused.

 It should also be pointed out that guidelines for use of electrical equipment in hotels issued by HSE say that in almost all cases (dependant on the type of appliance) a visual check by a competent person (not necessarily an electrician) is sufficient to meet the law.

[nearlythere]

Electrics are one of the biggest fire starters in this country.

Maybe so, but can anyone advise what types of fault and/or appliance is the cause of most fires and is it known whether specific kinds of appliance have caused a fire.   Likewise, is it not the case that certain types of equipment have never caused a fire?

As an ex-engineer I have some technical knowledge but do not have the benefit of the fire service's experience.   What I do believe to be true is that certain types of equipment are much more likely to go upthan others.   One is immersion heater wiring which has a continuous high load causing, over time, degradation of connections and insulation.  If inflammable material is nearby a fire can be caused.   At the other end, a bedside light is unlikely to develop an electrical fault that could cause a fire.   A kettle might overheat if switched on without water, but has a safety device that breaks the circuit.  It is unlikely to be switched on while the room user is asleep.   Constructive comment on these causes of fire would be useful as if only inherently safe equipment is in use there is virtually no likelyhood of a fire being caused.

 It should also be pointed out that guidelines for use of electrical equipment in hotels issued by HSE say that in almost all cases (dependant on the type of appliance) a visual check by a competent person (not necessarily an electrician) is sufficient to meet the law.

Electrics is the 4th biggest fire starter in this country.
The first three, and not necessarily in any particular order, is men, women and children.
It is what the first three do to relatively harmless electrical equipment that causes the problem. A bedside light is quite harmless until you drape some fabric over it, use a high wattage bulb, overrated fuse, damaged flex, flex running under carpets, overloaded adaptors, etc, etc.

[Alan Keith]

A bedside light is quite harmless until you drape some fabric over it, use a high wattage bulb, overrated fuse, damaged flex, flex running under carpets, overloaded adaptors, etc, etc.

So is it not fair to say that the bedside light in my B&B, not draped in fabric, correctly fused with undamaged flex not running under a carpet or using an overloaded adaptor will not cause a fire in a million years?

In terms of FRA is this not an insignificantly small risk, and can the same evaluation not be applied to other equipment (if appropriate of course)?

[jokar]

Step 1 of the FRA guidance is to evaluate the hazards.  This is ignition sources, oxygen supplies and fuel loading, on the outcomes of this will be based the persons at risk and the control measures required to faciltate your life safety and that of those that resort to your premises.

[nearlythere]

If you have sufficient control over the situations I describe then yes you can determine that a bedside lamp is low risk. That is what assessing a risk is about. Lamps which can be knocked over easily are a greater risk than lamps which can not. Bedside lamps in childrens rooms are a greater risk than in adults bedrooms because you have little control over what children can do with them when they go to bed.
I'm sure you as an ex engineer will acknowledge that electrical equipment which produces heat e.g. irons, electric blankets, kettles, light bulbs etc is more likely to cause a fire than non heat producing ones. But I stress the words "more likely" because you cannot say that a bedside lamp properly used, or not missused, will not cause a fire in a million years. A properly used and maintained lamp is less likely to cause a fire than one which is not.
Are you going to tell me that you are being required to remove bedside lamps from bedrooms airds?

[kurnal]

I feel sorry for the direction that this discussion has followed and I feel we have missed an opportunity to explore, investigate and inform a new member who clearly misunderstands the basics of fire safety principles, legislation and enforcement and where we are all coming from. And to try and identify the threshold  above which the burden of compliance for one individual stakeholder became untenable. Lets not lose sight of the fact that many of these small enterprises are paying our wages- and they deserve the opportunity to join a forum such as this as a sounding board without being insulted or belittled.
 
I also regret that swaapc has thrown a firecracker into the ring and run away- thus reinforcing the views of those amongst us who have a very robust and forthright style of argument.  
Swaapc I hope you can be persuaded to come back and explore these issues further.  

In the mean time just to summarise what I think are some key points that keep getting overlooked.

1- There are far more dwellings in the UK than any other class of building that appear in fire statistics. So if you look at simply the number of fires and the number of fire deaths, domestic property is bound to figure at the top of the statistics. We have to be much more selective if quoting such statistics- especially with regard to socio economic groups and classification of property.
2- there are some superb and some dire standards in B&B establishments so we cannot generalise. I was recently in a seaside town where there was block after block of scruffy B&Bs that I would not let my dog sleep in - (but at the top of the street there was also a six storey hotel with a full height fire escape that was so rotten you could see through the treads and strings.) On the other hand I am based in the Peak and there are some lovely cottages so clean you could eat your dinner off the floor. We can only have one set of guidance so it has to cover the spectrum. But that doesnt mean you have to make them all the same and all fit the pictures in the guides. There must be room for professional judgement  otherwise we need to forget PAS79 etc and all switch to fire engineering and probalistic risk analysis.
3- Most B&B operators that I speak to seem to have grasped the concept of fire prevention. But we know that is not enough. You must still ensure that if a fire does occur then people are alerted and can escape safely before their lives are put at risk. Theres no way round that.
4- Size, layout, management and supervision can all offset to an extent the physical fire precautions we install to ensure that people can escape safely. But they can never replace them entirely.

[kurnal]

Airds- typical hazards related to electrical electrical appliances take a look at:

Ghetto blasters and the like with those plug in figure 8 mains leads- the internal psu i salways working unless its switcehd off at the plug- just like your tv on standby

impovised repairs using tape

hoovers with the cable regularly damaged by wrapping ropund the roller

Anything left switched on using ecnomy 7- except storage heaters

TVs left on standby

Bathroom fans blocked up with fluff

lamps that can be knocked over onto soft furnishings

Plug in air fresheners (allegedly- little proof I think)

overloads using unfused adaptors

Dirty or loose pins on plugs that cause arcing and overheating- eventually this will deteriorate as the contacts in the socket overheat and lose their temper and then their grip. One dodgy plug can wreck every socket in a building

wrong fuses in plugs or consumer units

Fridge motors (compressor type) or heaters (evaporation type) malfunctioning

Unserviced electric blankets