B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation

[FSO]

The bottom line is, that the law has been written and where applicable must be obeyed. Maybe some people dont agree with it, but tough.
Just because you dont agree with a 30mph speed limit and in your opinion in unwarranted, do you go saying through at 40- 50mph and moan when you get a ticket? No you accept the risk that you will get caught for disobeying criminal law. If you do, you are pretty silly.

There is no difference.

I get fed up with people moaning to me about the legislation and about how "wrong" it is. Well actually its not wrong at all. It is another piece of legilsation put in place to SAVE LIVES and also there to protect the responsible person if they pay due diligence and comply where nessecary.

I accept that there are some old guide huggers of inspectors out there who have difficulty coming to terms with risk calculations. But some of us are pretty good at making judgements based on risks.

Please accept that most IOs have been to these fires and have experience of how fire develops so their opinion is likely to be better placed than an average B&B landlord.

If you dont agree with what we say, talk to us, ask us why and challange the rationale there and then. Hopefully you will understand the reasoning at the time. If after this you still do not agree, take your 'expert' opinion to the courts and let them decide.

All I will say is please dont tar all IOs with the same brush. Ultimately we are there to make professional opinions based on our experience and the risk posed by your premises. Some just need a little tweaking, so bite the bullet pay a proffesional (and recommended) fire consultant to come and do a proper fire risk assessment.
You could save a fortune in the long run!

[David Weston]

I accept that there are some old guide huggers of inspectors out there who have difficulty coming to terms with risk calculations.

FSO, you have made our point very concisely, albeit in stronger terms than we would have used.  

As I have said in my earlier posts, the B&B Association does NOT think the RRFSO as written, and as intended, is "wrong".  It is very sensible.   It is the inconsistency and (often) lack of proportionality in the enforcement which is wrong.   Added to that, the lack of any "de minimus" element (if domestic premises are not excluded) also creates a needless burden on fire inspectors, FRAs and householders that is not justified by the risks and was not (we believe) intended by Parliament.

[FSO]

Indeed, there will always be slight inconsistency due to the fact that one person cannot inspect all the B&Bs. Obviously taking in account the risk of the building, it will be the opionion of the IO to if the measures in place are suitable and sufficent. My opinion of a low risk may be slightly different to my collegues. However it should not hugely differ.

I do ocassionally pick up jobs to follow up where I feel there has been some over provision asked for and it does annoy me. It then puts the IO in a difficult position sometimes.

As I said before and im sure many people will agree, providing there is a good risk assessment in place to justify whatever provisions you wish to make and these in my opinion are realistic, you should not be seeing me for a while.

I would recommend to all B&B owners to jump on board an employ somebody who knows what they are doing to perform a FRA asap.

Remember....more often than not, you get what you pay for!!

[CivvyFSO]

So is it lack of consistency or lack of proportionality you have a problem with?

We can clear up a lack of consitency by hugging our guides. One size fits all. Consistency at its best.

We can work on proportionality by throwing the guides away, but then we are working to people's opinion of risks involved. That being the case I may have a completely different viewpoint to the old station officer next to me who has seen many times the upshot of what happens when it all goes wrong. I might be thinking about risk proportionate in a perfect world and accepting 'good management' as a feature, where he might be trying to make sure that what he has seen cannot happen again regardless of any management.

Failing that we could stand back, let you sort out your own fire safety, and prosecute you to the full extent we can if you get it wrong and someone gets hurt.

[FSO]

I do not think good management is an overriding issue to lack of other provisions, but it is certinally contributary.

I do feel, the guides are sometimes un realistic. ADB in similar is only a guide with recommendations. Providing the fundemental requirement is met...job done.

Hence why we have CFD, engineered solutions and overall experienced well trained enforcing officers who can make a suitable decision based on the risk that the premises poses to the relevent persons.

Why should enforcement of the RRO be any different?

I presume you would ask for all the passive requirements as it shows in the picture for an ice cube factory???

I agree that for most sleeping accomodation, the benchmark should and will be the RRO guide and the LACORS document. If you actually read in full these documents the chances are that what the premises has in place is perfectly sufficient.

Some areas of the guidence I will not budge on, but some I will if I can be shown realistic and suitable control measures.

Take a read of DD9999, its the future...lol

[David Weston]

CivvyFSO,
Consistency: of course there will never be perfect consistency, but is is the substantial inconsistency between areas in the treatment of similar properties that we are trying to help the fire safety community reduce.
Proportionality: the RRFSO is very clear - fire precautions should be proportionate to the size of the undertaking and to the risk.  
You are right, but your notional "old station officer" would be totally wrong in enforcing the guide or in imposing prescriptive standards regardless of the actual risk.  This does matter, because very small businesses are closing because of such actions (I have just spoken to a B&B owner this morning who is closing his award-winning B&B).

[Chris Houston]

CivvyFSO,
This does matter, because very small businesses are closing because of such actions (I have just spoken to a B&B owner this morning who is closing his award-winning B&B).

What award did he win?  What was he asked to do?  Was it unreasonable?  Why did he not want to do it?

[CivvyFSO]

Did any of those awards make the premises safe to sleep in?

It's a bit flippant I know, but if there was a death in a B&B would it be any consolation knowing that they will have had a nice last meal and died in a clean room?

Should we accept "It will cost too much to make this building safe" as a reason for allowing unsafe standards?

[FSO]

Absolutely not, but lets look at things from an individual approach.

I must admit though, i am struggling to see what costs so much to bring a B&B up to spec. The standards can generally be met fairly simply by a bit of tweaking or re shuffling.

[Midland Retty]

I did post earlier on in the thread with the suggestion that the B&B association looks at providing workshops / inviting guest speakers from the fire service to one of its conferences.

It would help set up dialogue, communication , dispell myths, a chance to voice different sides of the story etc.

[David Weston]

I did post earlier on in the thread with the suggestion that the B&B association looks at providing workshops / inviting guest speakers from the fire service to one of its conferences.

It would help set up dialogue, communication , dispell myths, a chance to voice different sides of the story etc.

Midland Retty, I think this is a very good suggestion.  We have always been keen to engage with the fire safety community and be as constructive as possible, and it makes sense to plan an event where the issues can be considered in detail and in the round.  We are considering the logistics now and will seek the fullest and most senior participation by the fire & rescue services, the Department (DCLG) and those whose homes and businesses are affected.   Watch this space!

[The Colonel]

B&B

Dont just get senior fire officers as they may only see the strategic view, see if you can get some of those from the sharp end such as Midland, Civvyfso etc as they are the ones who see the establishments each day. It could also be benificial to have some independent fire risk assessors so that they can contribute as well.

Senior people in the fire service and DCLG do not always see the real side of things from thier ivory towers!!!

[Midland Retty]

B&B

Dont just get senior fire officers as they may only see the strategic view, see if you can get some of those from the sharp end such as Midland, Civvyfso etc as they are the ones who see the establishments each day. It could also be benificial to have some independent fire risk assessors so that they can contribute as well.

Senior people in the fire service and DCLG do not always see the real side of things from thier ivory towers!!!

Quite agree Colonel

(Although that is not to say I'm volunteering my services you understand !!!)

By all means invite senior brigade officials, but with the greatest of respect to them they do not deal with these issues on a day to day basis, so best to include front line fire safety officers too.

As Colonel suggests getting everyone within the industry involved from assessors to inspectors, installers to suppliers will be of huge benefit to your landlords. It will give them ideas on costs, products, enforcement, expectations, ways of achieving compliance etc.

[nearlythere]

B&B

Dont just get senior fire officers as they may only see the strategic view, see if you can get some of those from the sharp end such as Midland, Civvyfso etc as they are the ones who see the establishments each day. It could also be benificial to have some independent fire risk assessors so that they can contribute as well.

Senior people in the fire service and DCLG do not always see the real side of things from thier ivory towers!!!

Quite agree Colonel

(Although that is not to say I'm volunteering my services you understand !!!)

By all means invite senior brigade officials, but with the greatest of respect to them they do not deal with these issues on a day to day basis, so best to include front line fire safety officers too.

As Colonel suggests getting everyone within the industry involved from assessors to inspectors, installers to suppliers will be of huge benefit to your landlords. It will give them ideas on costs, products, enforcement, expectations, ways of achieving compliance etc.

You have to include senior officers as they are the policy makers.

[Chris]

Hi,

Thought I would join this forum to bring a different perspective to the debate.

We currently run a small B&B (two luxury rooms in our farm house) in Derbyshire.  
We will be closing in two months time due to the new fire regulations.  Why?
1)      The cost of the work required by the fire service can not be justified from the income we derive from the business.
2)      The amount of work involved would be highly disruptive to OUR HOME and to our guests.
3)      The long term impact on our HOME.

Point 1 & 2 can relatively easily be overcome.  Point 3 is the real reason we are closing.  We are NOT going to install fire doors here there and everywhere, we are NOT going to have unsightly emergency lighting and unsightly fire alarms everywhere.  It is our home.  Strangely all our guests seem to agree.  They don’t want all this paraphernalia around them.  They come here because it is homely.  If they want a hotel they go to a hotel.

As two or three of our guests have stated – they don’t expect any higher level of safety in a small B&B than they have at home.

What a lot of us B&B owners don’t understand is why do we have to do all this (other than that is what the law says)?  By all accounts there has never been a fire in a small B&B (at least over the last 20 years).  

We all want to save lives.  But surely we should start with the big killers rather than witling away at the edges as we seem to be doing with most of the recent legislation.  I wonder how many people have died on the way, by car, to B&B’s over the last 20 years. Yet we don’t ban cars.  I am certain that any guest visiting us is far more likely to be killed or injured on the road getting to us than during their stay.

The small B&B is part of our culture, its something we are quite good at.  If we carry on down this path (not just the Fire regulations but other equally intrusive Health and Safety initiatives) I personally think that small B&B’s, as we know them, will disappear within the next 5-10 years. Why are there NO small B&Bs in Switzerland yet 000's in Austria?

Our fire inspection although cordial and amicable was intimidating.  Two uniformed officials on your door step can not be anything else.  There was no sense of proportionality. They could have been assessing a 10 story Hotel.  The same rules seemed to apply. Yes I smiled and agree with them.  Why?  

The same fire service had threatened to close down one of our neighbours B&B rooms on the day of their visit (with people in).  The only reason they didn’t was that they couldn’t get the paper work raised in time and the farmer and his son built a fire escape (from scaffolding) that night.  The neighbour has been doing B&B for 21 years yet all of a sudden her guests are in mortal danger? A fire escape for a 3 room two storey (ground floor and 1st floor) B&B with 1 room upstairs – hardly proportional!

We couldn’t risk this scenario so we smiled and agreed to carry out all the work (it bought us time).

Has anyone any idea what is the probability of a fire in a B&B?  If they do - how does that compare with been struck by lightening?

Let’s have some level of proportionality.  Yes our home (for our own safety) may need a few things improving but not all the way up to Hotel standards. The people making the laws and the people implementing them should note that they are supposed to be doing so for the people that pay them (the general public).  Do the public (or at least the B&B using public) want this level of interference in something they have enjoyed for years with little or no risk? I for one as a B&B user (as well as a B&B owner) don’t.