new/old rank structures

[b217bravo]

can someone please advise me of the correlation of old style rank definitions, ie, ffr, lffr, sub.o, stn.o, ado, do, sdo, daco, aco & co.

I am seeing terms such as crew manager (lffr ?), watch manager (sub.o ?), station manager (stn.o?) together with group manager & area manager, how do ado's,
do's, sdo's, daco's & aco'c fit into this system?. What is the "new" name for the Chief?

Many thanks for any replies,

MGP

[fireftrm]

MGP

I take it you are not from the fire service so I will try and explain.

The original ranks have been replaced by roles, though this is still (officially) only for pay purpases at present, the full change is imminent.

The original ranks were:

Ff, LFf, SubO, StnO, ADO, DO (I, II, III), SDO, ACO and CFO - there was also a DCFO (though strictly not  a rank it became so). The DACO you mention was a London only made up one.

The roles are:

Firefighter, Crew manager, Watch manager, Station manager, Group manager, Area manager and Brigade manager.

For pay purposes - ONLY the following presently applies:

Rank structure to the new role-based structure:
Firefighter Firefighter
Leading Firefighter Crew Manager
Sub-Officer Watch Manager (competent A)  
Station Officer
(Rider Station Officer or specialist not on flexible duty system) Watch Manager (competent B)  
Station Officer (On flexible duty system) Station Manager (competent A)  
Assistant Divisional Officer
(Not responsible for a group of stations) Station Manager (competent B)  
Assistant Divisional Officer
(Responsible for a group of stations)  Group Manager (competent A)  
Divisional Officer III  Group Manager (competent A)  
Divisional Officer II  Group Manager (competent B)  
Divisional Officer I  Area Manager (competent A)  
Senior Divisional Officer  Area Manager (competent B)  


You will see that, in order to incorporate all the original ranks, there are nearly as many pay points by using A and B scales within most roles.

For the roles here is a (very) brief outline, for more look at the role maps (and national occupational standards) on http://www.ipds.co.uk/news.php?id=55

Ff = firefighter
CM = a crew manager, working under a watch manager - so applies to the second in charge of a watch. For services that had StnO riders and SubO on second pumps then this really is the SubO role.
WM = watch manager - either existing SubO or StnO depending on the service (many have not had StnO riders for a long time)
SM = station manager (probably Flexi StnO or ADo depending on service) - the person manging the station, or group of WMs
GM = group manager - the person managing a group of stations, or SMs - probably ADO or DO depending on service
AM = area manager responsible for an area of the service, or maybe group of GMs, probably an DOI, SDO or even ACO in some services
BM = clearly brigade amanger, etc.

You will see that some services 'ranks' will not correlate to the role the same in the same level as others. For example the rider StnO is definitley a watch manager, yet in other services this position has been the responsibility of a person paid at SubO. They do the same role. This applies to any other 'ranks' to roles so the final position may cause some realignments of the pay scale compared to the 'pay purposes ONLY' present position. I can see the seperate A and B scale posts being revised, work on determining how these are decided is presently underway (job sizing - same role different size). This should bring the relevant roles into same pay scales, so the service where the WM has been paid at StnO and that where the same role received SubO will come to be the same.

So does this explain it, perhaps a chat with someone from a fire service could make it clearer, but pick someone who is not still fully tied tot he ranks, they haven't been keeping up with their own jobs!

Last point your 'chief' well he is now clealry a Brigade manager. But there will probably be more than one of them so how they will show which BM is the top BM I am unsure! I assume that you should look for the BM (B) but therein lies another debate!

PS if you are form within the service, Wakey, wakey, Rip VW. Rise and shine, long sleep eh?!

[dave bev]

pretty good answer - though i know something you dont - ner ner ner ner ner!



as for brigade managers - they are the only ones maintaining their collar markings - so we can all tell the difference between the dep and cfo - oh yeah!!!

i could go on, and on, and on, and on


em  me - you know the addy ;-)

dave bev

[b217bravo]

To fireftrm & dave bev.
Many thanks for your replies.

To fireftrm, thank you for your thorough explanation, very much appreciated.
I retired from service 25 years ago & have not kept as up to date as I would have liked, from what I read I am glad to be out of it.

To dave bev, You pre-empted my next question, will the old rank markings be ratained & how will rank holders be addressed in the future, no more Lf's, Sub's, Stn's, ADO's, DO's?. will they now be addressed as CM's, WM's, SM's AM,s GM's etc ?

MGP

[fireftrm]

Dave and Bravo

The new roles are to be demonstrated ny insignia - oh the subtle change from rank markings to role insignia!

The insignia are as follows:
FF   No role insignia               Plain yellow helmet
CM  2 x 12.5mm silver bars   2x 12.5mm black stripes on yellow helmet
WM 2 x Large impeller          1 x 12.5mm black stripe on white helmet with black     comb
SM 3 x Large impeller           1 x 19mm black etc
GM 1 x Large impeller in laurel wreath  1 x 19mm with 1 x 12.5mm black above etc
AM 1 x Large impeller in laurel wreath with 3mm silver band below Helemt as GM

BMs - as Dave says are to use the same markings as the original ranks.

You will note that the LFf rank marking is not replicated in the role insignia, nor does the rank neatly cross over to roles if you refer to the rationale of roles. The two pump station with StnO, SubO and LFf should really have a WM and a CM, however the pay transition arrangements leave this station as 2 x WM and a CM.............. some services have already dropped their T/LFfs so as to get rid of them. Expect that when the SubO (WM (A) moves up to WM true, or retires that the replacement will be a CM.

NOTE! The role insignia is ONLY for use on PPE - so the HMI is saying that it is for firekit only, yet many have already taken the 'promotion' to heart and I have seen, in other services, many previous SubOs showing off their two impeller collar clip-ons. Presumably where there used to be the StnO rider the watch now has two people wearing 2xImpeller and one 2x12.5mm.......... How confusing and difficult. Who is the true manager? After all a WM(A) does not report to a WM(B)?

Bravo - referring to the people will be by role, the ranks no longer exist, even where they are presently used, no longer in the Appointments and Promotions Regs and there is no mention in the Grey Book, they exist solely as services await the little somethings which Dave may by now know!.

[dave bev]

hmmmmm. lets not forget control staff please! they also have markings!

ps i can really see a member of the community asking to see the station manager or brigade manager as opposed to the station officer or chief!

MINE’S BIGGER THAN YOURS – SIZE DOES MATTER

As part of the move from rank to role CFOA have given consideration to the method of identifying different tiers of management. Of course we all recognize the importance of the need to be able to identify the tiers of command at incidents, but is there a need for them anywhere else? CFOA believe there is.

Of course there does appear to be a cost benefit to their scheme as you would imagine. They have recommended an extremely imaginative and money saving approach to the issue by removing, no doubt with the stroke of a thick felt tip pen, the rank markings previously allocated to a Leading Firefighter. Producing real modernisation and savings!

They chose to do away with a single bar and start from two bars, why didn’t they at least do away with all bars and start at one impeller. At least that would have shown they understand the real issue, that roles aren’t about status, they merely reflect managerial structure and responsibilities and the movement of an individual from ‘bars’ to impellers isn’t the significant move in the managerial structure as they seem to think it is.
.
The CFOA proposals recognise that collar markings will still be needed because if only a helmet marking scheme were introduced there will be no recognisable difference between a CFO or Fmr (in old money) or other Brigade Managers (in new money) either on the incident ground or within Fire and Rescue Service Headquarters! All other managerial levels are grouped as one, with the same helmet or collar markings, all that is except Brigade Managers. Brigade Managers would keep their ‘existing collar markings’. Obviously the Service or operational incident would not be manageable if the Assistant Chief was indistinguishable from the Chief by the lack of collar markings. Disastrous, almost!

i would suggest that role markings do have their place, but only for incident command at operational incidents. They believe that only helmet markings are required. Although the correct and full use of tabards on a fireground should indicate the role that an individual is delegated to carry out, there is a need for helmet markings so that an individual can be identified prior to allocation of responsibilities.

I would suggest that even that position should be taken that one step further and everyone be issued with the same coloured helmet. Why do we have different coloured helmets? Is there a real need for helmets to be a different colour dependant on your role in the structure?

By the time you’ve got this far you may be wondering if there aren’t better things to do than worry about such issues and if there didn’t appear to be an underlying problem in the way the CFOA document addresses the issue perhaps you’d be right.

The problem is that the recommendations made by CFOA perhaps demonstrate a real difficulty that some people have in coming to terms with ‘De- Institutionalising’ the Fire and Rescue Service. Using artificial delineation methods such as bars as opposed to impellors for the lowest managerial tier, using different coloured helmets for the majority of the workforce and incredibly still wanting to identify the CFO or Fmr from other Brigade Managers shows that there still is a long way to go. If CFOA can’t get the basics right are they sure they can deal with and lead on other far more important equality issues, because apparently some people in CFOA may still believe that they’ve got a bigger one than others and size does matter.

dave bev

[wilbur]

You could'nt make it up - unbelievable

[b217bravo]

To fireftrm & dave bev,

Once again thank you for you replies & observations, wilbur echoes my thoughts precisely, you just couldn't make it up could you.

If you could indulge me once again other questions come to mind.I presume that the initial recruit training will still be in place?,

Will the present time scales for promotion to LFr, Sub O & Stn O still apply?,

Will the competency tests be set & supervised by the FSEB & will they be universal & national?

How far up the role stucture will the competency tests extend, as at present to
Stn O (WM) role ? will promotion to AM & GM be by interview only.

Will IFE qualifications be consideredin the competency tests ?

Did I read that 2 tier entry is being proposed for graduates etc,? surely if this is the case it can only be for specialised non-operational duties, ie FP work.

I apologise for my lack of knowledge of the new system but with your help I feel that I am beginning to get a grasp of the enormous challenges facing the sevice in the months & years ahead. Good luck to you all, I think you are going to need it.

To fireftrm. re-read my first post, I retired after 25 years service & not 25 years ago, God that would make me about 80 years old!!!

Kind regards & best wishes to you all,

MGP

[AnthonyB]

Did I read that 2 tier entry is being proposed for graduates etc,? surely if this is the case it can only be for specialised non-operational duties, ie FP work.

FP work is becoming increasingly civilianised in Brigades and not as graduate level either - in some brigades it's only a few points of the scale above the extinguisher service tech's

[dave bev]

so many questions and such little time to answer - ive only got a few years left to do (9) -to get to 55 and 36 years service

 initial recruit training - they now become trainees not recruits. how long - how long do they need? answers on a postcard please? great in principle and some would say reflective of the retained process

time scales - none though competency in role should be proven before moving to the next role (thats a bit more of an issue than it sounds which is why an 'accelerated promotion' type scheme is being determined

competency tests, universal,national ? youre 'avin a larrrf! the odpm introduced 'interim assesment and development centres, and brigades - oops - fire and rescue services went ahead and reinvented their own versions - outcome - chaos in some areas, cos those up the tree know best!

competency tests - i assume youre referring to the old practical exams (i have a sheild and a certificate from the dear old fseb) - none existent - until someone brave enough to recognise their need within the development programme following adc's or even as part of the selection process - remember the old equipment tests, design use and limitations, then the move to lecturettes on equipment and a risk premise - GONE - how far upwards - probably as far as it is convenient - though whats new there!

IFE - now theres an interesting one - i used to do some marking a few years ago - one of the few who has actually marked preliminary, graduate and members papers - i hope they do find a niche - though i suspect a bit of a stumble in the dark for a while

two tier entry , make that multi tier! and dont call me shirley!

enormous challenges - whats new?


anthony b - there were a couple of pq's recently ref the purple guide - though not particularly well answered! rro will have an impact on this area im sure.

ps - the long winded answer above re size does matter are my personal veiws and not neccessarily shared by others - it was an article i submitted for print but it never got past the editor i assume!!


dave bev

[Gary Howe]

"FP work is becoming increasingly civilianised in Brigades and not as graduate level either - in some brigades it's only a few points of the scale above the extinguisher service tech's"

Well that says a lot about FS if the Brigades set the pay scale just above the level of an extinguisher engineer, boy do they take it seriously!!!!!

All that said I suppose anthony B is telling the truth?

Waiting for the bullets to come flying back. regards Gary

[AnthonyB]

I hasten to add it's not all - some offer a fairly decent amount!

[b217bravo]

Resulting from your kind responses to my original post I am now getting a feel for the (confused) situation.

As a former serving officer, but now an outsider looking inwards, I am unable to see any advantages in the role structure over the rank structure, sure the system was not perfect but it has stood the test of time & you were able at a glance to identify an individuals rank & hence their place in the pecking order, will this now be possible?  will it be possible to identify a WM(A) or SM(B) from their shoulder (rank) markings? similarly a SM(A) from a GM(B)?. Unless I have missed something very fundamental we have a very confusing situation indeed.

I am reminded of two well known sayings which seem to cover this situation,
(a) "A camel is a horse designed by a committee", which seems to sum up the new role system.
(b)"If it aint broke don't fix it",

I wrote earlier the old system was not perfect but in my view changes could have been made to bring the system into the 21st century without the wholesale root & branch changes now being introduced.

Could the IPDS system not have been incorporated within the rank system to ensure continuing education/training with regular assesments to ensure its effectiveness?

To other matters,

I see the push towards regional control centres continues at pace with a number of FRSS involved in consultation exercises, I am surprised that so many CFO's are in favour of RGC's & simply brush aside the concerns of other interested parties, do they know something that we don't?

How long before we learn of regional fire authorities? there is provision in the act for this to happen if Prescott/Raynsford are so persuaded, we should be afraid, very afraid that the future of the service is in their hands. Can't /won't happen? don't believe it, such a move would not be as difficult as the reorganisation in 1974 & we would once again here the "efficiency" mantra.

Kind regards & best wishes to all,

MGP

[b217bravo]

I have read a report of fire where the senior officer in charge of the incident, formerly a SDO, is descibed as "Principal Manager". Is this a new role title? can't find any previous reference PM.
Is the role of PM subject to competence grading, ie,
SDO-PM(Competence A), ACO-PM(Competence B),
Where does this leave the old rank of DCO?
More confusing by the day!
Geoff

[fireftrm]

Principal mangers is not a role title but an organosational one - goes back tot he old days where the top tier were known as Principal Officers. The correct role tiltles are Brigade Managers for the top role and Area Manager below that.

So THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRINCIPAL MANAGER ROLE.

SDO is AM (B) and ACO is BM - I have no idea whether they have As and Bs at BM as they are not in the Grey book, or that pay scheme.

PS there is no difference in the role between an A and a B - this will be job 'size'. See the FBU website for more information on the likely role determinations. So if anyone thought that the B would be 'in charge' of the A think again.