Red Tape - including Fire Regs

[Davidrh]

I have just had a troll through the new CFOA Polcy on false alarms (37 pages)
I have noted that I  (the RP) cop for it.

Tell me folks

When do I get to run me hotel ??

Don't the powers that be release that the barrage of red tape on businesses is causing brain fryup

Its all going to end in tears.

I consider myself a responsible educated person and I stuggle with it all.

I can honestly say that after all the effort I have put into just one aspect (fire regs) I am still totally confused about what I should and should not be doing

I suspect there are many many many people out there we are just binning all this red tape (which seems to change from day to day, even hour to hour)

me too maybe !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chris Houston]

It's a free country and you're quite entitle to have a rant about it, but I'm not sure that users of FireNet should shoulder the blame or are in a possition to change the law.  Have a moan at your MP if you want something changed, but I am only reading complaints, not solutions........

Maybe you should use the services of some of our esteemed users if you are finding this too difficult? :lol:

[nearlythere]

I have just had a troll through the new CFOA Polcy on false alarms (37 pages)
I have noted that I  (the RP) cop for it.

Tell me folks

When do I get to run me hotel ??

Don't the powers that be release that the barrage of red tape on businesses is causing brain fryup

Its all going to end in tears.

I consider myself a responsible educated person and I stuggle with it all.

I can honestly say that after all the effort I have put into just one aspect (fire regs) I am still totally confused about what I should and should not be doing

I suspect there are many many many people out there we are just binning all this red tape (which seems to change from day to day, even hour to hour)

me too maybe !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Davidrh. All of this red tape is a bit like a your car insurance policy. A complete and utter waste of time and money - until you have a crash that is.

Everybody but everybody is affected by Red Tape in some form or other. Sometimes Red Tape gives you money and sometimes it takes it away. However, it is usually only the latter that people complain about.

[kurnal]

Cant see what all the fuss is about.

You have a business and you dont want to put your customers at risk but you want to make a profit for all your efforts. You have read the guidance and arrived at your interpretation of what is a reasonable standard of safety for your guests.

The fire service share your wish to keep your customers safe but dont give a hoot about your profits or how hard you work to keep the business going. They disagree with your interpretation of an acceptable level of risk. There is a gap between their aspirations and your intrpretation. Depending on how wide that gap is they will either prohibit, prosecute, enforce or give goodwill advice.

From what you have said in the past that gap is not particularly wide. Perhaps not wide enough even for them to serve an enforcement notice.  If they do then you have right of appeal if you are convinced you are right and they are wrong.  

On a scale of % perhaps you are at 60% and they would like you to be 80% but if you focus exactly what the gap is  between  you, they will most likely be satisfied at  70%.

If they are not so concerned as to issue an enforcement notice then you should have the courage of your convictions, and as the Law requires of a responsible person make the decisions and shoulder the responsibility for those decisions.

They will still give you goodwill advice of course but you are confident in your own position aren't you?  
You would  be prepared to justify that position to a judge if it all went pear shaped? If not then perhaps you should follow their advice.
If the fire service were really concerned they would issue enforcement procedures wouldn't they?.

[twistedfirestopper]

My advice would be not to let your premises fall into the category of producing unwanted fire signals.

Get your local authority fire safety officer onside with you. We have a duty as stated in the LGA concordat to provide assistance, guidance and education. Especially to small  and medium sized businesses. We do not want to be attending your hotel on countless occasions that are false alarms.

[wee brian]

I dont see what the fuss is all about. If you keep having false alarms then get it fixed. If you dont have any then job done.

If your negligence results in unnecessary calls to the fire service, putting peoples lives at risk, then you deserve everything you get.

[Steven N]

My previous offer still stands regarding uwfs.

[Midland Retty]

Hi Davidrh

I know that all the rules and regs must seem a total blur and confusing.

Don't feel intimidated by it all.

If as many of the posters above say a problem with unwanted fire alarm signals oes occur the fire service won't knock on your door pointing fingers making threats to close you down or take some form of action, they will first of all try to work with you and give advice or point you in the right direction on how to go about resolving the issues.

I doubt now the the smoking ban has come into play that you will have much of a problem - I know and appreciate David that surrupticious smoking does go on, but speaking to the owner of the hotel that I stopped at the other day he will fine guests who set off the fire alarm because of a crafty ciggie.

Because he knows from the fire alarm panel which detector has gone off and in which room, he is able to ascertain who was most likely to have been smoking.

Also he has a policy where staff investigate alarms prior to the fire service being called, I think you said you already do that - in which case its job done.

[messy]

David

You will get some (limited) sympathy from me, rather than the (uncharacteristic & rather hostile) "I can't see what all the fuss is about" attitude from the others!!.

I have absolutely no experience running a small hotel/B&B, but I can imagine it's bloody hard work and being strangled by red tape must be infuriating. But as so often, the fire safety redtape is there for a reason.

There have been real winners and losers since the FSO came into force.

In the main, the scrapping of precriptive standards (the one size fits all approach) has got to be good news for most business folk. The law now makes it possible (with the right support from you local FRS) to devise your own strategy to reduce the risk to punters based on your specific building, hazards & risks.

The small businessman will, as usual, shoulder the biggest burden, as he won't have the resources of Tesco and Shell to get paid help. But mostly, you could argue, the smaller business present smaller risks (OK, a sweeping generalisation, but you get my drift) so it all evens out.

Unfortunately, you - a small businessman- have chosen a high risk business to be in: providing sleeping accomodation to the public. As a LA IO, I see a small Hotel as often posing a greater risk during a fire in terms of single staircase conditions, no in house maintenance crew and no wakeful staff at night etc. As a result, it's often difficult to 'relax' possible control measures as you may in other occupancies.

As has been said, there's nothing we can do as no significant changes are likely soon. The only crumb of comfort I would offer is that although it may take some effort and cash to introduce the necessary measures, in most cases - apart from maintenance - there's not much you need to do other than keep the FRA reviewed.

Good luck

[Wiz]

..... but speaking to the owner of the hotel that I stopped at the other day he will fine guests who set off the fire alarm because of a crafty ciggie.

Because he knows from the fire alarm panel which detector has gone off and in which room, he is able to ascertain who was most likely to have been smoking.....

I'd love to know how this guy gets on with this policy. Trying to prove that it was cigarette smoke that operated a detector would be difficult without more evidence than just an unwanted alarm. If I was defending the customer in court I would produce my expert witness who would confirm that smoke detectors are also capable of operating to dust, steam, aerosols, talcum powder, insect infestation, intermittant electronic fault conditions etc. etc. etc. We rest our case your honour and request payment of costs and damages

[Wiz]

I concur with messy and I also have some sympathy for Davidrh. It appears to me that the complaint was about red tape in general rather than the CFOA policy that he mentioned.

I felt the same way when I recently received an 8 page / 100 question form the Valuation Office with a demand that it be completed fully and quickly. What annoyed me most was the special booklet that was sent with the form gleefully explaining all the punishments that they were empowered to issue if their form wasn't completed as fully and quickly as they would like! This annoyed me because if you have a complaint that you want them to deal with they will do it in their own good time and there is nothing you can do about it. Like it or lump it.

It is a fact of life that anyone trying to run a business in 'Ban and Punish' U.K. will not have an easy life. But the problems affect all businesses, so you put up with it with weary grimace.

The best way to cope is to do whatever you can, no matter how small, to make life equally difficult for the Government and it's agencies wherever possible. Your successes are likely to be small and rare, but it feels damn good when you do get one over on them!

Bring on the revolution!

Damn! I shouldn't have said that. I bet this post has been picked up at GCHQ and I can expect a visit from jack-booted jobsworths next week. See you all at Guantánamo Bay!

[Davidrh]

Hooray for Wiz !!!!!!
Just a tiny tiny example folks of the problems we "small businesses have (30 staff)
If my staff go off to a party outside the hotel. A. I cannot legally stop them. B I may not know. C Anyway I live 250 miles away ...BUT I am legally responsible for them!!! another one for you. A. I am having Sunday Lunch at home 250 miles away. B My chef gives some customers food poisoning, C I am responsible. The hotel gets closed down. The staff are out of a job but the Chef...He walks down into town and gets another chefs job the next day. Do you want another one... I, apparently, with zero knowledge, training or aptidude have landed the job (I did not apply for it and had no knowledge of it implication when I purchased the hotel in 2004 ) of RP.
Finally...have you good people noticed the complete absense of comments on this forum from other hotel owners.
Do they know about all this fire stuff. Do they have time to know. Do they care ??  What would Gordan Brown say if he was suddenly told he was responsible for Fire control at No10...Scottish expletive I suspect
And how would you good folk feel if you were  told you were responsible, under law, for (example) defusing any world war bombs found under your stations (the bomb squads who previoulsy took care of such matters now delgating that responsiblity to the Fire Station Bomb RP. Don't laugh...thats a bit what the curent Fire regs feel like to a layman novice. (Its totally ridiculous)
Soory Chris. I know this is a rant but can you people fly planes ?

[Izan FSO]

Hooray for Wiz !!!!!!
Just a tiny tiny example folks of the problems we "small businesses have (30 staff)
If my staff go off to a party outside the hotel. A. I cannot legally stop them. B I may not know. C Anyway I live 250 miles away ...BUT I am legally responsible for them!!! another one for you. A. I am having Sunday Lunch at home 250 miles away. B My chef gives some customers food poisoning, C I am responsible. The hotel gets closed down. The staff are out of a job but the Chef...He walks down into town and gets another chefs job the next day. Do you want another one... I, apparently, with zero knowledge, training or aptidude have landed the job (I did not apply for it and had no knowledge of it implication when I purchased the hotel in 2004 ) of RP.
Finally...have you good people noticed the complete absense of comments on this forum from other hotel owners.
Do they know about all this fire stuff. Do they have time to know. Do they care ??  What would Gordan Brown say if he was suddenly told he was responsible for Fire control at No10...Scottish expletive I suspect
And how would you good folk feel if you were  told you were responsible, under law, for (example) defusing any world war bombs found under your stations (the bomb squads who previoulsy took care of such matters now delgating that responsiblity to the Fire Station Bomb RP. Don't laugh...thats a bit what the curent Fire regs feel like to a layman novice. (Its totally ridiculous)
Soory Chris. I know this is a rant but can you people fly planes ?

The whole idea as a RP is to show due dilegence. if your chef poisons the customers you need to show he has been trained properly he has all the necessary food hygeine certs etc and you have done everything in your power...he's a muppet not your fault.

If you are not competent or confident enough to carry out a fire risk assesment GET SOME HELP as a RP you dont have to do it you only need to make sure it is done. concentrate on the stuff you know about running a hotel and get some one to help with the areas you dont.........

[kurnal]

If my staff go off to a party outside the hotel. A. I cannot legally stop them. B I may not know. C Anyway I live 250 miles away ...BUT I am legally responsible for them!!!

No you aint. Vicarious liability has its limits. If you send them to a party whilst on duty you are liable for them and their actions. If they go off on their own without your permission or against the rules they are on their own.

I am puzzled. I thought the FSB and CBI welcomed the principle of the new fire safety legislation- the owner of the business creates the risk by operating the business, and the owner of the business is therefore the very best person to manage that risk and determine (within reasonable limits) the appropriate level of safety for his business.

If you buy a pizza delivery business you are expected to know about the need to maintain your van and train your drivers, its nothing to do with pizzas but its about the essential tools to run your business. Provided your drivers keep within the guidance of the highway code you wont have problems but if you tell them to drive everywhere at 90mph to deliver more pizzas someone will feel your collar.

David it sounds to me like you would rather someone look at your hotel, tell you what you must do to achieve a safe standard, issue you with a fire certificate and come knocking on your door once per year to make sure you are doing it. Oh and dont you dare change anything in your hotel without their permission, it would be an offence to change your building without their say so.  the good old days of fire certification.

As I said in an earlier post I think you are just wanting the equivalent of driving  at 40 in a 30 limit and grumbling because the policeman wont let you, but if you were instead to drive at 35 nobody will actually bother you.

[Wiz]

Hooray for Wiz !!!!!!......

Don't side with me mate- I'm totally bonkers!

..... What would Gordan Brown say if he was suddenly told he was responsible for Fire control at No10...Scottish expletive I suspect....

I imagine different rules apply to government buildings. The Queen is probably the RP and I can imagine that she's losing no sleep over it!

.....Finally...have you good people noticed the complete absense of comments on this forum from other hotel owners.
Do they know about all this fire stuff. Do they have time to know. Do they care ?.....

Some of them have been sniffing about around here in the past. I would guess they got scared off by the replies they got!

Davidrh, You will actually find a lot of good advice on Firenet and it can help you to understand how to deal with the problems you are facing. Maybe you should employ some help with the RRO, as others have suggested. You might find the problems aren't as big as they first appear.

Mostly, it is important not to give up too easily in the face of adversity! Show the bulldog spirit!

I'm just off for a quick spin in my Cessna