Author Topic: Guest house  (Read 95546 times)

Offline kurnal

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« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2008, 08:05:48 AM »
First  reason is that 44% of all fires are caused by arson. ( old figures from 2003 but all I had to hand)

Remember the concept of a "Protected Route"- we stop counting travel distances in a protected route, there are important limits on travel distance elsewhere. If we need a protected route we must ensure that it is a sterile place free of fire risk, with wall and ceiling linings controlled. If you are looking at a small building and can meet the travel distances from rooms direct to final exits you could afford to be a little more relaxed. But always remember - a fire in a room threatens the occupant in the room and their imediate neighbours. A fire in a staircase threatens everybody on the upper floors. Risk = Liklihood x consequence.

Finally lets not forget that the Rosepark fire started in electrical equipment within a linen cupboard.

Offline Mushy

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« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2008, 08:35:39 AM »
Thanks Kurnal

I understand the theory and believe me I also understand arson...however if an arsonist was going to set a fire he/she would leave the door open anyway...so being a fire door wouldn't make any difference...this particular cupboard is used purely for linen with no electrical equipment.

I can fully understand the concept of occupied rooms or rooms which could have an ignition source such as electrical cupboard being fire doors...that to me is a given...but if it's just linen?

It just seems in assessing the fire risk there are still some parts of it that wont budge

Thanks again for the replies to this thread

Offline CivvyFSO

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« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2008, 08:41:08 AM »
Quote from: Mushy
Can anyone please tell me why a linen cupboard has to be half hour fire resistant and kept locked shut?

This particular one is apparently in this guest house on the stair landing

If there is nothing in there but linen on shelves...is it going to spontaneously combust?
It has been known and documented. Linen freshly out of a dryer, nice and warm and dry. It only takes a combination of this heat/dryness/residue from cleaning fluids/oils etc and you can have a problem. It is a reasonably well known scenario in the dry cleaning trade.

If you want some idea of how it happens, the next time you have a load of hot towels come out of a dryer, quickly fold them and stack them on top of each other, put your hand in the middle of the pile, then press the pile down. (And don't blame me if it hurts.)

If it was opening into another room that wasn't anyones escape route then I wouldn't be too concerned, but the example you give where it opens into a stair then it would be quite clear that it should be required as Kurnal points out.

Offline CivvyFSO

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« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2008, 08:44:33 AM »

Offline kurnal

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« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2008, 09:03:04 AM »
No Mushy I think you are right. Consider the circumstances of the case, is it the only route out of the building or are there alternatives,  are the doors a good fit and there is no danger of lighted materials being pushed past any gaps in the door, size, ignition sources, laundry procedures as civvy points out , if you have done all this and recorded your reasoning and decision in the risk assessment then job is done and your decision is valid.
One problem with a forum is none of us but you can see the whole picture so we err on the side of caution.

Offline Mushy

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« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2008, 06:09:44 PM »
Ok on the say so of the FSO she is going ahead with the fire alarm system, emergency lighting on escape routes and fire doors to the four bedrooms and stairway...the fire risk assessor goes in on Monday... probably as the work is being done!

Seeing that the two owners live on the ground floor and there are no other staff and they know their own house...what training will need to be done...probably how to use the fire extinguishers? Do they have to do a full evacuation of guest every so often?

Has the owners safety got to be taken into account under the RRO?....ie she says that their bedroom is next to the kitchen that doesn't have a fire door on their side of the accommodation

She told me yesterday that there are no disabled people as guest because the bedroom layout on the first floor and the stairway is not suitable....is this against the DDA...ie does she have to adapt her guest house to cater for disabled under the DDA?

I know all this will all be flagged up on Monday but just wondered on your opinions :)

Offline CivvyFSO

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« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2008, 11:51:22 PM »
So many questions, far too much time on my hands...

Training: They should familiarise themselves with the contents of the risk assessment. Just reading through it properly might shed some light on things they might not have understood. (provided it is done to a reasonable standard) As far as actual training goes, in this sort of instance I would suggest having good procedures in place, so they know exactly what they will do if there is a fire. i.e. Raise alarm, phone 999, attempt to help guests out if required, location of assembly point)

Extinguisher familiarisation always helps, hands on training is clearly better, I am sure you could help them with that one.

If they have guests that are willing to take part in a drill then they might aswell take advantage of that, otherwise I am sure that discussing what they will do between themselves would suffice. RRO does say that drills should be done, but this could be quite informal in this instance. (A couple of "fire action" notices dotted about are a constant reminder to them what should be done, in fact stick one on the back of the toilet door, you have a captive audience. ;))

What we really need to avoid is the pandemonium that tends to happen when something like a fire happens and people do not know what to do.

The owners safety does have to be taken into account under the RRO. Their private part of the building should be classed as domestic, however they ARE relevant persons and that means they still need protecting from a fire in the rest of the building. (which the new alarm system should do quite adequately provided they have sounders in their part)

If we can class their bedroom and the kitchen as domestic then the kitchen door scenario isn't as bad as it might sound. Look at any studio apartment, you are sleeping in the same room as the kitchen. Provided they do not have to travel through or past the kitchen to escape this could be easily covered by grade D smoke detection in the escape route. (If it is truly domestic then we can't require anything, but they should really have some form of detection for their own sake)

As far as DDA goes, you/they are expected to make 'reasonable adjustments' to accommodate disabled persons.

Offline jokar

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« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2008, 08:27:12 AM »
THE FRS has also a duty as a public authority under DED to inform people if they are not in complinace with DDA.

Offline Mushy

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« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2008, 09:54:36 AM »
Thanks for taking the time to answer Civvy...promise no more questions....

I'll let her know about the DDA requirements...spoke to her last night and there is no room downstairs for a bedroom to accommodate a wheelchair bound person so unsure how she can conform to make reasonable adjustments

yes you are right...after 25 years operational  I might be able show them how to use an extinguisher :)

Offline jokar

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« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2008, 02:05:47 PM »
Mushy, be careful disability is not just about wheelchair users, the definition includes physical and mental impairment.  In the case of the nice fire alarm system the people are having installed beacons may have to be a part of that RA scenario.  Those with hand impairments may have difficulty in opening some doors so the detail in BS8300 as reagrds door opemning pressures needs to be ensured.  Too many thouights, too many ways to be caught out.

Offline Davidrh

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« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2008, 04:37:59 PM »
Can anyone explain to me how a FB can approve a 28 bedroom hotel in essex that has NO fire doors on bedrooms and HDs only

Offline Izan FSO

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« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2008, 09:04:09 PM »
Quote from: Davidrh
Can anyone explain to me how a FB can approve a 28 bedroom hotel in essex that has NO fire doors on bedrooms and HDs only
Contact essex fire and rescue service and ask them about the circumstances of the case im sure you will find that there is more to it than what you have said

Offline nearlythere

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« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2008, 10:10:41 PM »
Quote from: Izan FSO
Quote from: Davidrh
Can anyone explain to me how a FB can approve a 28 bedroom hotel in essex that has NO fire doors on bedrooms and HDs only
Contact essex fire and rescue service and ask them about the circumstances of the case im sure you will find that there is more to it than what you have said
What you hinting at Izan?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Izan FSO

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« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2008, 08:28:52 PM »
Quote from: nearlythere
Quote from: Izan FSO
Quote from: Davidrh
Can anyone explain to me how a FB can approve a 28 bedroom hotel in essex that has NO fire doors on bedrooms and HDs only
Contact essex fire and rescue service and ask them about the circumstances of the case im sure you will find that there is more to it than what you have said
What you hinting at Izan?
I'm hinting that each case is different there may very well be a situation that has arisen where there could be a solution to why there are "no fire doors on bedrooms and HDs only" and these GFP have been applied to this premises based on the findings of the FRA. But unfortunately Davidhr thinks that if one can do it so can everyone but the GFP needed for each premises may be different. SO ask Essex FRS and ask what is so differnet about this premises.

Offline Mushy

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« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2008, 11:40:56 AM »
I know it's difficult to get a mental picture of this place and I'm not too much help as I've never been there... but this is how it has been described to me last night in the pub!.... there are 4 bedrooms 2 situated at the top of  the staircase (within it) and two within a communal area on the first floor just off the staircase. All bedrooms are having fire doors fitted

When you come out of these latter two bedrooms there is this a communal area than leads directly to what will be a protected staircase that leads directly to outside...

The communal area has two leather chairs, a fabric bench seat type thing, an oak coffee table and some magazines to read and that's it...the ceiling is wooden strips placed directly on to the original plasterboard ceiling

All fabrics are current BS standard

A LD2 grade D alarm system will be installed

Now the Fire Officers notice has apparently quoted a passage out of the sleeping guide

"All corridors serving sleeping areas should be protected routes with 30 minutes fire resistance."

Is the communal area classed as a corridor because it leads to the protected stairway and if so does it have to be cleared?

The TD is within the limits to the protected stairway

Does the wooden ceiling need a flame retardant coating?

I know I know I said no more questions..:)