Lacors, please explain

[Midland Retty]

All written by people who, in all probability do not have detectors in bedrooms or kitchens at home but are happy to make other people do what they would not do in their own home.

Colin I'm not sure I understand your point .

Firstly I dont have a fire alarm system to BS 5839 part 6 system in my house. I simply have two battery operated domestic type detectors. Why do I not have for instance mains powered interlinked smoke detection for in each room? The answer is that I have total control of what goes on in my own home.  

In a HMO or hotel no single person has total control of what goes on in those premises (not even the landlord). If one resident does something which put others at risk is it not right to expect those other residents to be afforded reasonable protection from the actions of the irresponsible resident?

I know of no fire officer that I work with who is of the opinion that smoke detection is provided in a bedroom or bedsit solely to protect the occupant. AFD is provided to protect the MOE.

Can any one point me to any conclusive research where it has been proven that you don't need to have AFD in bedrooms or risk rooms?. Can anyone point me to research that proves that even if a fire occurs undetected and spreads into the escape routes the AFD in the escape routes will activate well before those routes become untennable.

I accept that a fire officer asking for heat detection to be changed to smoke detection in say hotel bedrooms would be wrong, and onerous but to suggest no AFD is required at all is ludicrous

[wee brian]

http://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/consultations/partB/BD2538__D2_V2__Final_Report_226779_for_publication.pdf

[Tom Sutton]

I think that research was about domestic fire detectors in homes and not what MR is discussing. The stats used, define dwellings as buildings occupied by households, excluding hotels, hostels and residential institutions.

[wee brian]

And the detector that wakes me up in a house aint good enough if i'm in a hmo?  I suppose there are those pesky fire doors.....

[William 29]

Go back to the 1980s and you will find BRE research on deaths within bedrooms of origin in hotels and boarding houses. And you only need to look at statistics to see that nowadays no one dies in the bedroom of fire origin, so smoke detectors in the rooms can only be to protect people who dont die anyway. HMOs are different, and a significant number of deaths do occur in the room of fire origin. Any suggestion as to why would be censored by Messey's Thought Police, cos people out of their heads on drugs and alcohol are just as important to society as a Chief Fire Officer. (In fact, people out of their heads on drugs and alcohol probably ARE chief fire officers.)

and this could take us back to the debate of smoke or heat detection in hotel bedrooms. Some FRS are requiring heat detctors to be replaced with smoke. They are missing the point of why the detection is provided in the room in my opinion.

Yes I know the person in the room is a relevant person and in a new installation smoke would of course be preferred but heat detection has not lead to a fire death in a hotel to date. Surley money could be more wisely spent reducing risk that actually exits, fitting strips and seals for example.

I am in the early stages of dealing with a large student accomodation block that for years has had no AFD in the 100 plus bedrooms.  The F and RS have served notice to get them installed.  This will cost them over £40K.  I am thinking there could be other options open to them following a suitable and sufficient FRA?

[kurnal]

http://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/consultations/partB/BD2538__D2_V2__Final_Report_226779_for_publication.pdf

Thanks for the link Wee B - it beats me where you keep conjuring them up from.

Now then. Is it deliberate or a faux pas that in the references on page 66 they quote BS5839 part 1 1988 and don't mention the 2002 version?


If anybody has a copy of  Pezolt,VJ & Van Cott,HP, “Arousal from sleep by emergency alarms: implications from the scientific
literature”, NIST report NBSIR 78-1484 (HEW), 1978 I would be very interested in offering to buy, beg, borrow or steal.

[Tom Sutton]

wee brian you may be right but that research did not answer the question MR asked, if it had included premises MR spoke of, then it may have come up with different conclusions.

[kurnal]

I am in the early stages of dealing with a large student accomodation block that for years has had no AFD in the 100 plus bedrooms.  The F and RS have served notice to get them installed.  This will cost them over £40K.  I am thinking there could be other options open to them following a suitable and sufficient FRA?

Hi William - From your description I bet that must be either the fire service college or one of the fire service training hostels?

[colin todd]

The reason fire detectors were installed in rooms off escape routes was b, ecause of some evidence that IN LONG CORRIDORS WITH DOORS HAVING NO INTUMESCENT STRIPS  a corridor could be smoke logged before corridor smoke detectors operate. The use of stand alone smoke detectors in rooms, or smoke detectors rather than heat detectors CAN ONLY BE TO PROTECT OCCUPANTS OF THE ROOM. This is made clear, or we thought we had made it clear, in BS 5839-1 and BS 5839-6. If all the MR chums he works with fail to understand this, no wonder we are in such a mess.
And fire does not really care too much about the semantics of what a property is called. If its ok for your home, it will be ok in a property that looks like your home. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, probably best to feed it stale bread, not steak and chips.

[Tom Sutton]

And fire does not really care too much about the semantics of what a property is called. If it’s ok for your home, it will be ok in a property that looks like your home. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, probably best to feed it stale bread, not steak and chips.

As a chum of MR I agree with most of your comments and only wish I could get hold of a copy of this 1980's research you speak of it would be more relevant to this discussion. However I would not accept most HMO's as "property that looks like your home" the control and layout is in most cases quite different. Therefore I would suggest the statistical research WB spoke of is of little relevance in this situation.

[jokar]

MR, battery smoke alarms are a Grade F system to BS 5839 Part 6.

[FSO]

Out of interest, how many people discussing this have actually been and inspected HMOs?

Im not just talking the nice ones either.

[FSO]

PS. My question is not intended to be patronising, im just interested.

thanks

[kurnal]

Yes wearing all three hats. ( but not at the same time)

I have inspected many under the former legislation as an inspecting Officer over 30 years.
I have  attended and investigated a number of fires in HMOs.
I have served a number of prohibitions on those that put people in danger ( though under former legislation)
I have been witness in a coroners court following a fatality in a HMO
As a consultant I have carried out risk assessment and design services owners and architects in respect of  HMOs.

Why do you ask?

[FSO]

Hi Kurnal

Thank you for your reply.

I am not questioning anybodys ability, quite clearly you are in a very good position to offer an informed opinion.

The reason why I ask.......

I listen to arguments based on BRE research and assumption based solutions and I can see very good reasoning behind their arguments. The problem I see is that generally (and I am not saying all) HMOs are habited by persons that fall into our high risk groups.
Surely enhancing AFD is a good thing when we know that we have our fire deaths in these premises.

Classic example.

The other week I attended an HMO following a fire. This was a slow developing fire caused by a fault in an immersion heater within a bedsit.
The two occupants were extremely lucky and were awoken by the angels looking down on them. Fitted within the HMO was a part 1 L2 within the common parts and a heat detector within the bedsit.
In my opinion this was very close to two fatalities.
Had detection been fitted in line with the LACORS guide I am certain this close call would not have happened.

There was very little heat involved within this fire, but clearly alot of smoke was produced.

The AFA did not activate untill the lobbied entrance to the bedsit was opened.

I cannot ever see where heat detection would be adequate on its own in situations like this. Im sure the housing officer will be taking this one up.

Just my personal opinion of course but using my own experience in line with recommendations.