add a smoke seal or not?

[ps]

Hi having looked through several posts on the same subject - I can't find a straight answer so - at risk of opening another can or worms,  I wondered if anyone could answer this one..

In a residential development with Fire Doors (alegedly) but I'll come to that in a moment, if the common areas are fitted with detectors and an alarm, do the doors to the flats need a cold smkoe seal (or brushes (which is best)) fitted as well on the bottom of the door as well as the intumescent strip?

Re my doubt of the fire doors  - I cant find any little plug that tells me the front doors are fire doors? How do I get absolute proof that they are. Ive got a property maint company to have a look but all theyve come up with it, "the plug may have been painted over, they look like fire doors, or maybe they were installed before plugs were invented". Given the site was built in the 80's I cant see that myself as I thought the marking system had been around for yonks (technical term)


 

[jokar]

No plugs any more.  BS 476 part 8 was a test for fire doors with 25 mm stops.  The standard is now S&S BS 476 part 22.  If a door is close fitting and nas the 25 mm stop then it is still a fire door.  If you are unhappy fit new door sets.

[ps]

Thanks Jokar, does that mean there are no markings at all on fire doors these days if they've been fitted recently?

Seems a shame - a nice label would make things sooo much easier!

[Thomas Brookes]

I really do think that there should be set markings for fire doors, maybe a printed code number on the wood at the top.

[ps]

I agree - maybe its a conspiracy started by persons responsible for manufacture of new doors on the basis that, it we can't work it out - it ain't a fire door!

Seriously though - I was told that all had to have a plug - so where can one find an easy guide so that doors can be procalimed a fire door or not a fire door without a plug or label? Is there a definative checklist - ie 3 hinges, x cm thick etc etc???

Does such a thing exisit?
If not whoever produces it may well become a best selling author - I'm guessing I'm not the only bod who struggles here!
 

[Tom Sutton]

If the door set uses the BFW or BMTRADA certification system then there will be plugs or labels, unfortunately there are too many untested fire doors used these days and there is no way of being certain without documentation.
Try http://www.firesafe.org.uk/html/fsequip/firedoor.htm

[kurnal]

.
Try http://www.firesafe.org.uk/html/fsequip/firedoor.htm

Thats not a bad source of information TW- I wonder who put that together? Very useful.

[jokar]

Have a look at the BWF website for really good info.

[AnthonyB]

BWF do a handy free chunk of plastic that is exactly 3mm for gaps testing - it incorporates a mirror to help you spot markings under BWF's scheme as they are on the top of the door frame.

The problem is that there are many doors that pre-date the schemes, a mixture of different schemes (cores, labels, etc) and no obligation to use them anyway

[ps]

Perfect - both sources of information are going to be really useful - many thanks yet again (I seem to be always saying that!).

I'm still waiting for someone on the site to ask something I can answer myself so I can begin "payback" until then though - THANKS!

[Tom Sutton]

I forgot to mention Aunty Lin’s bible “Best Practice Guide to Timber Fire Doors” at the ADMSA website http://www.asdma.com/  and there are other downloads that are useful.

[Auntie LIn]

Sorry chaps I missed this one.   You probably wouldn't have found a plug on a door fitted in the 80s because TRADA only developed the Fire Door QA scheme at the end of the 80s and that's when the plug came into being.   Given the age of the doors, I think you're on a hiding to nothing finding any supporting information, such as test reports (certificates as they were then).

Jokar - sorry to disagree but BS476:  Part 8 was NOT a test for doors with 25mm stops.   Pt 8 was a test for fire doors, full stop.   We tested 25mm, 12mm and double swing doors to Part 8.   While Pt22 is still available for use, many manufacturers are testing to BS EN 1634-1 as a precursor to the sainted CE marking requirement that will come in if the EU change from CPD to CPR.

To those of you concerned about whether or not there are marks on doors - the plugs are still in use.   There are also labels which are routinely fitted on the heads of doors (don't forget your handbag mirrors dearies!) but of course these do get damaged or removed by on-site adjusters.

Tom - the ASDMA downloads are now also available on usb sticks.   Send me your name and address if you want one anybody.

[davincey]

Continuing the 'smoke seal or not smoke seal' question.......

Senario....

Houses built during the Victorian era converted into flats, mostly ground, first and occasionally second floor; compartmentation questionable (as unsure of the building regs during the old girls reign!) therefore early warning and evacuation the order of the day. 
Plan is to fit smoke detection in the common staircase, radio linked to detectors in individual flats with sounders in all areas.

Question: fit smoke seals to flat doors? Would not fitting them provide a second line of defense, by the escaping smoke activating the detector in the staircase? (Thus reducing the risk from tenants tampering with their detectors!)

Any and all opinions welcome!

[kurnal]

If you have detectors in flats these will operate first. Think of a fire timeline, think of the response time of occupants to a fire alarm.

I have heard this idea put forward before. To me it sounds a bit like drilling a hole in the side of a boat on the waterline to give early warning of the risk of sinking.  When your feet get wet  you will have early warning that the ship is going down.  But you are more likely to sink.

[davincey]

If you have detectors in flats these will operate first.

This is assuming that the tenants have not interfered with the detectors in their flats (difficult for a landlord to manage)
If they have, and smoke seals are in place, by the time the detectors in the staircase are activated wouldn't the escape route already be compromised?