HMO standards

[wtfdik]

Difficult to find out if converted to CP3 standard but each flat has 30 min FR doors ( some have closures removed). Minimal fire risk in staircase,  60 min between each flat vertical and horizontal. No lobbies in flat or staircase.

[kurnal]

Do flat entrance doors open directly into rooms of the flats or into a hallway?

[jakespop]

 LACORS guide. General questions I have which others probably have as well.
 E.g  Shared student houses of  2 and 3 storey. Does RRO apply or not? Is a Fire Risk Assessment required?

[nearlythere]

LACORS guide. General questions I have which others probably have as well.
 E.g  Shared student houses of  2 and 3 storey. Does RRO apply or not? Is a Fire Risk Assessment required?

Yes and yes. Not family dwelling.

[CivvyFSO]

I think we are talking about 2 different premises now.

wtfdik, it sounds like compartmentation is reasonable (might be worth checking it all thoroughly before making a final decision though), but you are missing either a protected entrance hall, or a lobby between the flats and the stair. You are also likely to be missing ventilation to the stair. This scenario is not to current building regs guidance. Some people may (& some will) argue that since the compartmentation is good, people are safer in their flat so no alarm should be given, but if you want to work to current guidance then you are left with the need for a fire alarm system in the common areas.

Jakespop, the "shared house" tag used to be directed at 2 storey houses, as it was decided by the powers that be to 'go easier' on these (despite them still technically being a HMO) due to statistics showing that these are safer than a similar setup in 3 storey houses and above. I haven't bothered with lacors much, so they might be saying something different, but if they are saying a 3 storey house can be a shared house then they are missing the point, but never mind.

[JC100]

This scenario is not to current building regs guidance. Some people may (& some will) argue that since the compartmentation is good, people are safer in their flat so no alarm should be given, but if you want to work to current guidance then you are left with the need for a fire alarm system in the common areas.

Like you said, some may disagree, so i dont want to disappoint!

The idea of the RR(FS)O isn't to bring every building up to current standards. If the building was converted with enough separation to satisfy the building regs at the time and it was deemed safe to stay in a flat, why isn't it now if the flats still meet those conditions? If there is any doubt, then of course, an alarm should be fitted.

Technology and experience in fire safety have improved considerably over the years but where do we draw the line? 

[Midland Retty]

This scenario is not to current building regs guidance. Some people may (& some will) argue that since the compartmentation is good, people are safer in their flat so no alarm should be given, but if you want to work to current guidance then you are left with the need for a fire alarm system in the common areas.

Like you said, some may disagree, so i dont want to disappoint!

The idea of the RR(FS)O isn't to bring every building up to current standards. If the building was converted with enough separation to satisfy the building regs at the time and it was deemed safe to stay in a flat, why isn't it now if the flats still meet those conditions? If there is any doubt, then of course, an alarm should be fitted.

Technology and experience in fire safety have improved considerably over the years but where do we draw the line? 

This is where risk assessment comes into play Smokescreen.

It isn't about debating if something was designed to a certain standard years ago and whether it should or shouldnt be uprgaded to current standards. Your fire risk assessment should tell you what is required, and as we are aware the assessment looks at reducing risk to ALARP (resonably practicable being the operative words).

Also I want to clarify some points made about a shared house not being subject to the Reg Ref (Fire Safety) Order.

As LACORS states there is no legal definition of a shared house (see page 39 - Point 35.1) It also acknowledges that it is a grey area whether or not the FSO applies. Some officers and consultants have argued that any parts ALL residents can access or use in the house such as lounges, kitchen , common hallway are actually common areas and therefore the order applies.

Whether you agree or not I would still urge landlords to complete a fire risk assessment for two reasons, the first is to establish what precautions are required for protection of tennants / residents and secondly what precautions precautions / measures required to protect their businesses / property.

Last point about escape windows - see paragraph 9.8 & 14 of Lacors which has a drill down of where they can / can not be used.

[CivvyFSO]

With regards the shared house argument, it could easily be considered that the main part of the house, even though it is a shared area, is indeed still 'domestic'.

Therefore by virtue of:

6. —(1) This Order does not apply in relation to —
(a) domestic premises, except to the extent mentioned in article 31(10);

It should be argued that the RRO does not apply. Even though there are a few people in it, surely it is still a private dwelling. There is a tendency to link up with the housing act and look at the definition of single household etc, but even if it is defined as a HMO, it is still capable of being domestic and private?

Now take a block of converted flats, the 'domestic' part finishes at the flat door, and by virtue of 'any place' the remaining part comes under the RRO. There are some situations that muddy the waters a bit, but take a pinch of common sense and think if the RRO was ever intended to apply to someone's living room and bathroom regardless of whether people are related to each other.

From DCLG: Shared houses: The risk of death from fire is no higher in a shared house than in a
comparable non-HMO dwelling.

[Midland Retty]

Well put Civvy - I quite agree. (I threw in that bit about lounges / kitchens just as a point of discussion).

Common sense must play a part when dealing with Sheltered Housing / HMOs, and to my mind undertaking a fire risk assessment is common sense regardless of whether legislation requires us to do so or not.

[CivvyFSO]

LACORS guide. General questions I have which others probably have as well.
 E.g  Shared student houses of  2 and 3 storey. Does RRO apply or not? Is a Fire Risk Assessment required?

Yes and yes. Not family dwelling.

This might clear some things up...

From the National Fire Safety Protocol, from Lacors, signed by the Secretary of State for housing, and Secretary of State of fire safety:

Which authority should take the lead
enforcing role for fire safety?
The table below lists the authority that will
normally take the lead in inspection and
enforcement action in different types of
property.
1 Single dwellings, including shared
housing, (Fire risk assessment
not required) LHA

No RA therefore no RRO.

(Even though LACORS mention there is no legal definition of a shared house, they do go on to define what is a shared house for the purposes of the guidance document. If I were an owner then I would look closely at that to ensure that whatever we are talking about is or isn't a shared house to ensure I was not caught out.)

[kurnal]

Yes Civvy I agree as far as the domestic premises are concerned, but my understanding is that these domestic premises sit on top of shop premises on the ground floor  without a good standard of compartmentation in between?.

[nearlythere]

LACORS guide. General questions I have which others probably have as well.
 E.g  Shared student houses of  2 and 3 storey. Does RRO apply or not? Is a Fire Risk Assessment required?

Yes and yes. Not family dwelling.

This might clear some things up...

From the National Fire Safety Protocol, from Lacors, signed by the Secretary of State for housing, and Secretary of State of fire safety:

Which authority should take the lead
enforcing role for fire safety?
The table below lists the authority that will
normally take the lead in inspection and
enforcement action in different types of
property.
1 Single dwellings, including shared
housing, (Fire risk assessment
not required) LHA

No RA therefore no RRO.

(Even though LACORS mention there is no legal definition of a shared house, they do go on to define what is a shared house for the purposes of the guidance document. If I were an owner then I would look closely at that to ensure that whatever we are talking about is or isn't a shared house to ensure I was not caught out.)

Do you class it as "shared housing" or "HMO"? I understand student accommodation of this type to be HMO.

[PhilB]

This might clear some things up...

From the National Fire Safety Protocol, from Lacors, signed by the Secretary of State for housing, and Secretary of State of fire safety:

Which authority should take the lead
enforcing role for fire safety?
The table below lists the authority that will
normally take the lead in inspection and
enforcement action in different types of
property.
1 Single dwellings, including shared
housing, (Fire risk assessment
not required) LHA

No RA therefore no RRO.

Not quite as simple as that Civvy.

Unshared private dwellings fall outside Article 2 of the Order. Where  there is a shared house and the tenancy agreement demonstrates that residents have joint occupation, and the premises are their dwelling, the house will fall outside Article 2. For it will be a single shared house, rather than a building containing parts used in common by the occupants of more than one private dwelling.

The position is more complicated in respect of premises where the tenancy agreements disclose exclusive occupation of bedrooms, but common use of  other parts of the premises, such as kitchens, bathrooms and sitting rooms, along with facilities in the premises.

Where a tenant has significant and substantial use of shared parts, this will result in the bedroom being just  part of the tenant’s dwelling, rather than his dwelling.

There are no conclusive tests to determine what will be sufficiently significant to identify whether premises are a part, or the whole, of the tenant’s dwelling, the existence of a shared sitting room will be an indicator that the exclusively occupied bedroom is only part of the tenant’s dwelling. In such circumstances, should this indicator, and the range of other circumstances in the premises, evidence that the sharing of areas is significant and substantial, the tenant will not have a separate dwelling. The Order will, therefore, not apply.

and finally just to be picky.....we shouldnt really use the term RRO, there are many RROs but only one fire safety order.

[CivvyFSO]

Yes Civvy I agree as far as the domestic premises are concerned, but my understanding is that these domestic premises sit on top of shop premises on the ground floor  without a good standard of compartmentation in between?.

It is clearly a flat above a shop. Not a house. Still potentially domestic though.

[CivvyFSO]

Do you class it as "shared housing" or "HMO"? I understand student accommodation of this type to be HMO.

If it is actually a house, and it is shared (taking into account PhilB's comments where he kindly pointed out some examples that muddy the waters) to the extent mentioned in the lacors document (listed below to save time looking it up) then it still falls under the Housing Acts definition of HMO, but it is recognised by the protocol mentioned above as a shared house and a single private dwelling.

Switching logic on for a second, the whole phrase "house in multiple occupation" seems to logically indicate a shared house, while all the other buildings that tend to fall into the HMO group should be known as BMF's. (Badly Made Flats) It would clear things up a bit.

Lacors:

35.2 For the purposes of this guidance, shared houses
are described as HMOs where the whole property
has been rented out by an identifiable group of
sharers such as students, work colleagues or friends
as joint tenants. Each occupant normally has their
own bedroom but they share the kitchen, dining
facilities, bathroom, WC, living room and all other
parts of the house. All the tenants will have exclusive
legal possession and control of all parts of the house,
including all the bedrooms. There is normally a
significant degree of social interaction between the
occupants and they will, in the main, have rented out
the house as one group. There is a single joint tenancy
agreement. In summary, the group will possess many
of the characteristics of a single family household,
although the property is still technically an HMO as
the occupants are not all related.