metal ties

[Thomas Brookes]

This is my point exactly.

Everyone has a slightly different opinion, why not just put it in the standard "only metal clipsor fixings are  to be used at spacings not exceeding 12 inches".

No more confusion.

[Big_Fella]

It's amazing, that when we install we use metal every 1 metre and plastic at intervals between that, and this is always approved by LPS1014 when we are audited.  Yet there are still so many opinions on this, probably why we see so many variants in installation methods.  It's interesting to see others points of views.

[David Rooney]

As the man said......"it's a funny old game........!!! "

[Allen Higginson]

As the man said......"it's a funny old game........!!! "

Small jumpers,boys for goal posts!

[GregC]

.........And does this then mean that even "enhanced" cable is no better than standard if it isn't clipped properly??

I would suggest that either cable has the potential not to meet it's specified abilities if it is not installed strictly in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations.

If the manufacturer's recommendations are to a higher standard than the BS (or any other) recommendation then the manufacturer's recommendation takes precedence.

Ahh, but Wiz, the manufacturers do not call for metal clips, they ask for support at prescribed distances, do they not?

But plastic ones would not support Gregc.

Actually they would support the cable correctly, right up to the point they melt

The point I feel most people are missing is not the supporting of the cable that is the issue, its keeping the cable in the correct position in a fire condition to prevent it weakening and failing, the 1 metre spacings are almost as bad as no metal clips at all under those circumstance imo.

[nearlythere]

Greg
Like plastic clips a piece of string would support a cable right up to the point when it is burnt through.
Is "supporting the cable" and "keeping it in the correct position in the event of a fire" not the same?

[David Rooney]

Personally I can't see how a cable metal tied every meter is going to significantly move ....

If it's that fragile perhaps we should all go back to MICC........

[Allen Higginson]

Personally I can't see how a cable metal tied every meter is going to significantly move ....

If it's that fragile perhaps we should all go back to MICC........

Metal conduit and saddles it is then!

[Wiz]

.........And does this then mean that even "enhanced" cable is no better than standard if it isn't clipped properly??

I would suggest that either cable has the potential not to meet it's specified abilities if it is not installed strictly in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations.

If the manufacturer's recommendations are to a higher standard than the BS (or any other) recommendation then the manufacturer's recommendation takes precedence.

Ahh, but Wiz, the manufacturers do not call for metal clips, they ask for support at prescribed distances, do they not?

Ahhh but Greg C, the BS asks for fixings equal to the fire resistance of the cable. As I said  'If the manufacturer's recommendations are to a higher standard than the BS (or any other) recommendation then the manufacturer's recommendation takes precedence. I said if, so if it doesn't, then BS rules!!!!!

[Wiz]

.........And does this then mean that even "enhanced" cable is no better than standard if it isn't clipped properly??

I would suggest that either cable has the potential not to meet it's specified abilities if it is not installed strictly in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations.

If the manufacturer's recommendations are to a higher standard than the BS (or any other) recommendation then the manufacturer's recommendation takes precedence.

Ahh, but Wiz, the manufacturers do not call for metal clips, they ask for support at prescribed distances, do they not?

Ahhhhhhh but GregC. Now you're making things up! I never ever said that the manufacturers call for anything in particular.

In fact, that is often the problem!

[Wiz]

It's amazing, that when we install we use metal every 1 metre and plastic at intervals between that, and this is always approved by LPS1014 when we are audited.  Yet there are still so many opinions on this, probably why we see so many variants in installation methods.  It's interesting to see others points of views.

It could be the auditors have actually ascertained the precise type and manufacture of the cable you have used and have checked that your fixing method/spacings is appropriate to the manufacturer's instructions for that type of cable.

Alternatively, the auditors haven't got a clue about the type of cable and it's fixing requirements and have just thought 'that doesn't look obviously wrong (i.e only plastic ties etc), so I'll assume it is o.k.'

It wouldn't surprise me if it was the latter, because I've found that most cable manufacturers provide scant information about fixing their cables.

[Big_Fella]

It's amazing, that when we install we use metal every 1 metre and plastic at intervals between that, and this is always approved by LPS1014 when we are audited.  Yet there are still so many opinions on this, probably why we see so many variants in installation methods.  It's interesting to see others points of views.

It could be the auditors have actually ascertained the precise type and manufacture of the cable you have used and have checked that your fixing method/spacings is appropriate to the manufacturer's instructions for that type of cable.

Alternatively, the auditors haven't got a clue about the type of cable and it's fixing requirements and have just thought 'that doesn't look obviously wrong (i.e only plastic ties etc), so I'll assume it is o.k.'

It wouldn't surprise me if it was the latter, because I've found that most cable manufacturers provide scant information about fixing their cables.

I wouldn't be suprised if it was the latter either.  What seems just a basic concept has really unearthed a can of worms

[Wiz]

This is my point exactly.

Everyone has a slightly different opinion, why not just put it in the standard "only metal clipsor fixings are  to be used at spacings not exceeding 12 inches".

No more confusion.

Thomas, as I previously said, a rigid recommendation unfairly disallows those cable manufacturers whose cable works correctly with fixing spacings every 1m instead of your suggested rigidly prescribed 12 inches.

The BS recommendation is perfectly well written.

It is up to the various cable manufacturers to fully and properly advise installers what type and spacing of fixing is required to meet the specified fire resistance.

[Big_Fella]

Having looked at a few data sheets from different cable manufacturers, for their types of cables (including the large manufacturers) the recommend the use of metal every 300mm H and 400mm V.  So this throws it all open, something which I have'nt realised, and stuck to the BS recommendation in the past.  Something which I think I will have to look into a bit deeper now

[Big_Fella]

I think generally we all know if for example when clipping toslab we would use metal P clips for example and in trunking etc we still have to provide clips.

When installing on metal baskets you're going to get the support from the basket, so one would assume metal tie wrap every metre in this case.

When we should look at the manufacturers recommendations would be if installing on the side or underneath of metal baskets which is quite often the case.  Where the majority of installs I see they would have metal every 1m with plastic at intervals.  This would be the time to strongly take into consideration the manufacturers recommendations in providing full metal table ties within intervals also.