BS 5839

[Sherpa]

Apologies if this is a daft question but why is BS 5839 a code of practice and not legislation?

If you carry out work practices that are outside that of BS5839,  then would you be legally responsible to prove your work practices were sufficient.

[Midland Retty]

British Standards give tried and tested guidance on how to achieve something. BS 5839 for instance relates to fire alarm systems and covers everything from how they should be designed installed commissioned and maintained.

Enforcers generally use British Standards as benchmarks. That doesn't mean to say however that there aren't alternative ways out there of achieving the same thing to an equal or higher standard. As long as you can demonstrate any alternatives offer an equal or higher standard then enforcers should accept them!

If you turned British Standards into legislation you automatically make them enforceable, by making them enforceable any deviations or alternatives to those standards would not be acceptable or allowable.

In other words British Standards would become prescriptive and would not allow people to choose alternative ways of achieving the same thing.

[afterburner]

Concise. precise and outstanding MR.

[CivvyFSO]

Quite. Bravo old chap!

[Wiz]

Spot on, M.R.!!!!!

[nearlythere]

But as for the highway code, you are strongly advised to treat as prescriptive. 

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

You mean it isn't a code of practice or guidance? Damn! 

[bungle]

I think we also need to look at the political and accountability issues involved:
BS comittees are formed of very knowledgable and clever people who are all experts in their field , but, alas, they are not democratically elected and  so are not really accountable to the public.
If we relied on the politicians to formulate a law that laid down fair but adequate requirements we would probably have just passed one that authorised the "two metal plates seperated but a pat of butter heat detector" as  obviously the great and the good of SW1 are far too busy filling out their expenses claims forms to do something of any use.

Bungle

[jokar]

T add to this and pick something from another thread.  The technical committee are made up in part of represenatives of the FRS who agree the content.  Then change there mind as Hants and others do.  Why?

[bungle]

And that's why a BS shouldn't be law. At least this way the courts scrutinise what has happened and then make a judgement , the alternative just fills me with horror.

Bungle

[nearlythere]

Then change there mind as Hants and others do.  Why?

Because they weren't there that day that the particular issue was discussed and agreed.

[bungle]

Then change there mind as Hants and others do.  Why?

Because they weren't there that day that the particular issue was discussed and agreed.

Or there is a new officer in charge of fire safety who was trained by someone else?

[John Webb]

Having sat on a couple of BSI Committees, the fire service representatives were there representing the national bodies rather than a specific Fire Authority. So while I have much sympathy for those who follow BS recomendations, such as BS5839, it is up to an individual authority to take their own line if they want to, however much we deprecate such an attitude.

[nearlythere]

Having sat on a couple of BSI Committees, the fire service representatives were there representing the national bodies rather than a specific Fire Authority. So while I have much sympathy for those who follow BS recomendations, such as BS5839, it is up to an individual authority to take their own line if they want to, however much we deprecate such an attitude.

But is that not the reason why the fire service representative, representing the national body, is there John - representing all the fire authorities? Otherwise you would have to find an awful lot of seats for each authority representative. And that's only the Fire Services.
If a specific FA does not like what has been agreed, on it's behalf, and they are entitled to reject a particular issue, then every BS with a FS interest is of no use as an authoritive document.

[John Webb]

The fire service reps I met were generally representing such groups as the CACFOA, NAFO, FBU and the like. There may have been a representative from the Local Government Association, possibly not a fire officer. It may therefore be that the Fire Authorities don't feel they are getting an input to fire related BSs? And that may be why they go their own way? To be honest I don't know.

But a great deal of work does go into most BSs, and they do carry considerable authority and in a few cases are mentioned in legislation. For example the 'IEE Wiring Regulations' BS 7671 is specifically mentioned in the 'Supply of Electricity Regulations'.

So I wonder if in court someone showed that they had fulfilled their obligations under the RR(FS)O by carrying out the careful employment of BS requirements for fire alarms and the like or had used BS9999 if any F&RS could demand more?