Combined fire alarm and intruder alarm.

[Tom Sutton]

Is it acceptable to have a combined fire alarm and intruder alarm or must it be two totally separate systems. It is also connected to a ARC

[AnthonyB]

Would it comply with BS 5839-1?

I vary rarely (thankfully) see these and the ones I've seen are just a few smokes in the intruder detection circuit and it sets off the external bells & (if fitted) internal buzzers and monitoring station link. May be OK for property protection where an insurer isn't bothered about the system being to BS 5839, but inadequate for fire safety order purposes as fails to provide adequate manual warning.

Could you describe the system in relation to zoning, fault monitoring, cable type, sounders, call points, etc, etc as this would help as well as the premises being protected (size, occupancy type etc.)

I would think not, but would need more info.

[Wiz]

Is it acceptable to have a combined fire alarm and intruder alarm or must it be two totally separate systems. It is also connected to a ARC

Acceptable to who, TW?  

I'm pretty certain it would be impossible to have one system that complies totally with both BSs', if that is what you mean.

[Tom Sutton]

Sorry Anthony and Wiz all I know is the premises has a combined system and the FRS has told them to rip it out and replace with two separate systems. What I am interested in is on what grounds would the FRS use to enforce such a recommendation or requirement.

[nearlythere]

Sorry Anthony and Wiz all I know is the premises has a combined system and the FRS has told them to rip it out and replace with two separate systems. What I am interested in is on what grounds would the FRS use to enforce such a recommendation or requirement.

Might be that if you interface one system with another you end up with one that complies with no standard at all.
Wasn't that a problem in the past (before BS7273) with interfacing hold open and closed devices with BS5839 systems?

[Graeme]

Pet hate is fire alarms having anything to do with intruder alarms,even sharing a digi. Nothing but hassle.

Combined is even worse

Smoke detectors combined into an intruder alarm have very limited user control over them.

[Willo]

I suppose it would depend on why the system was conceived in the first place, what both parts of the system are protecting and who they were to alert. I can see that two systems sharing a line to an ARC would be useful as long as the centre receives an indication of which system is operating. Combining the two would surely cause confusion on many different levels.

[AnthonyB]

I don't know of any combined fire alarm/intruder that wasn't just smokes either on the intruder detection or directly into the panel & just firing off the monitoring link, external bell box and internal panic siren.

In which case it would not comply with the requirement for adequate warning & detection where necessary.

After all the first level of necessary alarm is human + voice, then human + horn/whistle/gong, then an electrically powered system which would as a minimum have to be human + call point + audible throughout the premises - which the above scenario wouldn't be able to do.

It's only where human detection is not deemed reliable/quick enough that you start throwing detectors in.

Then you've got the lack of protected cable, which is a retrograde step as at least protected sounder circuits have been pretty standard for decades.

I don't know the redundancy of intruder systems but perhaps the battery life and circuit fault monitoring is less than has been standard in fire systems for years.

Of course an ingenious spark may have been able to bell wire in some call points to act as a PIR/contact would into the detection circuits and may have added some extra internal sounders, but that definitely still doesn't mean it was OK!

If it was two separate systems sharing the intruder ARC link it would be naughty, but nowhere near as bad an unless one of the few places where an ARC link would be considered a vital life safety provision the brigade probably wouldn't care (or notice!)

[Allen Higginson]

I don't have it handy but isn't there something in Part 6 and the grades of system that permits an intruder system with smokes?

[Wiz]

I believe it would be possible to interface intruder alarm detection and intruder alarm warning devices into what is primarily an addressable fire alarm system and still keep the fire alarm system otherwise compliant with the BS. However the cost of doing so would probably be more expensive than two seperate systems.

Adding smoke detection to a system that is primarily an intruder alarm system can be a very cost-effective method of providing automatic fire detection. However, I believe it is impossible to include a BS5839 Part 1 fire alarm system within an intruder alarm system. At the very least the intruder alarm would not comply with the fire alarm BS in respect of cable fire resistance, fire detector removal monitoring/circuit continuation and battery standby duty.

Can anyone confirm Buzz's point that Part 6 smoke detection as part of an intruder alarm might be recognised under some circumstances. I don't know for sure and can't be bothered to wade through part 6.

In all events, if TWs' fire system should be Part 1 then I believe that the most cost-effective solution is always two seperate systems anyway.

[GregC]

Combining two system, it might be possible to have a compliant fire alarm system but there is no way of having a compliant intruder system as well.

Like Fire Alarm equipment has to be manufactured to BS5839 Intruder systems are manufactured to different grades.(1-4, 1 being B&Q, 4 being banks, 2 is domestic, 3 is comercial)

The fire alarm control panel for example would need to have a tamper on the door, none that I know of have this as a default.

Also the connection to the alarm receiving centre needs to be split due to the same manufacturing standards, I dont believe there is a BS5839 communicator that is also graded for intruder alarms and vice versa

[Allen Higginson]

The old Minerva panels had the capability to be dual panels in it's core software (including door tamper) but it wasn't utilised (I assume due to a clash of standards).

[Allen Higginson]

I believe it would be possible to interface intruder alarm detection and intruder alarm warning devices into what is primarily an addressable fire alarm system and still keep the fire alarm system otherwise compliant with the BS. However the cost of doing so would probably be more expensive than two seperate systems.

Adding smoke detection to a system that is primarily an intruder alarm system can be a very cost-effective method of providing automatic fire detection. However, I believe it is impossible to include a BS5839 Part 1 fire alarm system within an intruder alarm system. At the very least the intruder alarm would not comply with the fire alarm BS in respect of cable fire resistance, fire detector removal monitoring/circuit continuation and battery standby duty.

Can anyone confirm Buzz's point that Part 6 smoke detection as part of an intruder alarm might be recognised under some circumstances. I don't know for sure and can't be bothered to wade through part 6.

In all events, if TWs' fire system should be Part 1 then I believe that the most cost-effective solution is always two seperate systems anyway.

Knew I'd find it!!
From Part 6:2004

B.5 Grade C (Fire detectors supplied with power from a common power supply unit, with
central control equipment)
B.5.1 More effective control and monitoring of a fire detection and fire alarm system can be provided by
connecting all fire detectors to a common power supply, comprising the normal mains, rectified and
regulated as appropriate, with a standby supply, such as a secondary battery. Examples of such systems
include:
a) one or more smoke alarms and heat alarms operating at extra-low voltage and connected to a control
unit at an appropriate location in the dwelling;
b) intruder alarm systems or social alarm systems that incorporate control and indicating equipment to
which one or more fire detectors are connected; the detectors can be smoke alarms or fire detectors with
independent sounders.

[Wiz]

Combining two system, it might be possible to have a compliant fire alarm system but there is no way of having a compliant intruder system as well.

Like Fire Alarm equipment has to be manufactured to BS5839 Intruder systems are manufactured to different grades.(1-4, 1 being B&Q, 4 being banks, 2 is domestic, 3 is comercial)

The fire alarm control panel for example would need to have a tamper on the door, none that I know of have this as a default.

Also the connection to the alarm receiving centre needs to be split due to the same manufacturing standards, I dont believe there is a BS5839 communicator that is also graded for intruder alarms and vice versa

Greg C, How come B&Q get their own grade?  What about Homebase?

[GregC]

Homebase is domestic

Only B&Q have a trade counter........