Author Topic: Acceptance of PVC for fire resistance?  (Read 23614 times)

Offline SamFIRT

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Acceptance of PVC for fire resistance?
« on: May 20, 2011, 03:58:46 PM »
I would like to trawl for opinions of the Fire resistance qualities of PVC.

PVCaware.org  States PVC is inherently fire resistant due to the chlorine content and the charring properties of the product.

http://www.webcitation.org/5idIekWiR


http://www.bpf.co.uk/Search/Default.aspx?q=PVC+in+fires&btnSearch=go

Would you people doing Fire RA’s and FS inspections be happy with PVC as an acceptable product for fire resistance for doors windows and cable trunking ? Bearing in mind that as the product chars it looses its intrinsic strength and pyrolises to produce flammable HSG and chlorine gas?

Sam

Offline wee brian

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Re: Acceptance of PVC for fire resistance?
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2011, 04:45:25 PM »
No, that's nonsense.

Fire resitance is a property that relates to a construction, not a material.

It is conceivable that you could make something out of PVC that could pass a fire resistance test but I doubt it would be viable.


Offline kurnal

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Re: Acceptance of PVC for fire resistance?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2011, 04:47:45 PM »
Fascinating links Samfirt. No vested interest there then. :)

The bottom line is this. Show me a BS476 or equivalent test certificate for the assembly and I will accept it. Till then I wont.

 Had this argument with a builder last week over a pvc window frame he had installed beneath an external steel staircase serving flats. He assured me that the pvc frame has a steel lining throughout. But since his georgian wired glazing is held in with bits of plastic and silicone gaskets theres nothing to hold the glass in place.

Offline deaconj999

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Re: Acceptance of PVC for fire resistance?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2011, 06:13:11 PM »
When we are talking fire resistance we are looking at the ability of a material to resist a fire due to the type of protection it has, in terms of stability, integrity and insulation. I agree with Kurnal, PVC windows and doors within 1.8m of external escape stairs etc....are often as much use for the situation in which fire protection is required as the proverbial chocolate teapot.

As far as I know there is no such thing as fire resistant PVC, I remember asking someone years ago from the BPF Cellular PVC Group about this.  
The BPF advised that it would be too expensive to manufacture FR PVC even if someone had the inclination to bother.

It is correct that most frames have metal inside; for those that haven't seen PVC doors and windows perform. This is what happened in a recent Normal House fires - fire started in kitchen. I took these pictures for reference on this very subject during the investigation.

http://cid-25a7466558c48ec1.skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?page=play&resid=25A7466558C48EC1!133

Note the metal frame in the door and the melting of the window
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 06:41:41 AM by GFSM »

Offline Phoenix

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Re: Acceptance of PVC for fire resistance?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2011, 11:30:41 PM »
Another link I can't get to work.  Is it me again?


These PVC people appear to be blurring the distiction between fire retardancy and fire resistance - two entirely different characteristics.  The fact that they're doing this is bad enough, if they are doing it deliberately then it is reckless and irresponsible.

Stu

« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 03:33:54 PM by Phoenix »

Offline wee brian

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Re: Acceptance of PVC for fire resistance?
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2011, 07:29:13 AM »
Like many others I think they've mis-used the term unwittingly.

Theres no problem with UPVC doors and windows but you won't get one to pass a fire resistance test.



Offline SamFIRT

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Re: Acceptance of PVC for fire resistance?
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2011, 09:17:15 AM »
Thanks for all the replies so far.

It would appear there is a legal or specification differential between the terms fire retardant e.g. the lack of propensity for ignition and fire resistance. (I suppose in building construction and FSO terms)

Both terms (i.e. fire retardant and fire resistance) seem to have been used in the links I have attached in my original post.

Could you TFS / RA people please advise specifically of the definitions as you apply them? I am very interested.

The thing that really worries me is; if the manufacturers and installers of this product really feel there is no added hazard by using this product they either do not understand full compartment fire dynamics, are in denial, or are hoping they won’t be found out. Worrying.

Don’t misunderstand me; I understand UPVC is an excellent and versatile building medium. What I do not understand is the line being given by PVC industry that it is non-contributory to fire development. Now that is not specifically what the attached links say, to be fair. But others in the industry, in the distribution retail and fixing stages seem to believe it, in my experience?

Opinions ?
Sam

Offline The Colonel

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Re: Acceptance of PVC for fire resistance?
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2011, 10:11:40 AM »

Offline kurnal

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Re: Acceptance of PVC for fire resistance?
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2011, 11:06:09 AM »
Thanks Colonel thats the first one I have seen. A useful link that seems to plug a hole in the market.

Samfirt this is commonplace throughout the construction and design industry. Have encountered it myself regularly, the people who market such products and many designers have no appreciation of the differneces between the various concepts in fire performance, and the differences in classifications of linings on the one hand and protection and performance of elements of structure on the other.

Someone was trying to sell a product to a client of mine the other day for use in compartmentation- fully certified with a Class O performance.  I offered him a roll of cooking foil as a viable alternative. Then he saw the point.

Offline deaconj999

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Re: Acceptance of PVC for fire resistance?
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2011, 11:18:42 AM »
Great stuff anyone know the average cost for a doorset and side panel with window ?

Offline The Colonel

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Re: Acceptance of PVC for fire resistance?
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2011, 10:30:41 PM »
No idea on cost but I am aware that some housing providers have heard of it. Check their information but I am sure that the door set etc from Rehau needs to be installed by an approved contractor who has under gone correct training. Not a bad Idea as many fire door installers, no dis respect to carpenters, do not understand the tight requirements when correctly installing doors and frames.

Offline Fishy

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Re: Acceptance of PVC for fire resistance?
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2011, 11:35:08 AM »
Most of what they say appears technically reasonable - PVC (Polyvinyl Chloride) is reasonably difficult to ignite & does not readily support self-sustaining flaming.  One variety of it is used for sprinkler pipes, for example.  Like anything combustible, it'll contribute to a fire if one starts, but small (low power) ignition sources are unlikely to get it going.  It does, however, produce dioxins when burnt & if water is used on fires involving PVC then hydrochloric acid is produced, which is highly irritant & has dire effects if it condenses out on any kit.  

You could conceivably produce fire-resistant constructions using PVC, but you could say that for more or less any material - the PVC itself would contribute very little to the fire resistance - you'd need to use other materials (wood, metal, thermosetting plastics etc) to build the fire-resisting structure itself, because PVC melts at such low temperatures.

On the subject of terminology, there are some definitive sources:

  • In England & Wales, the Approved Document B, especially Appendix E;
  • BS 4422:2005 - Fire — Vocabulary
  • BS EN ISO 13943:2010 (Fire safety — Vocabulary);
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 11:41:28 AM by Fishy »

Midland Retty

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Re: Acceptance of PVC for fire resistance?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2011, 11:42:45 AM »
Rehau is the only manufacturer / supplier I know of who claim their upvc products are certified to / compliant with BS 476.

On a similar subject, I understand you can now get composite doors certified to BS 476 - has anyone had cause to specifiy / source one yet?

SamFRIT . Definitions are at most confusing, look in a dictionary and the words fire retardant and fire resistant are used almost interchangeably. Some websites mention the following definitions: " A fire retardant material slows burning across the surface of a combustible substrate. A fire resistive material delays heat penetration through a substrate".

I don't totally agree with the wording of those definitions, but they are along the right lines.

Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: Acceptance of PVC for fire resistance?
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2011, 12:16:52 PM »
It is a clear misuse of the term "fire resistance". People promoting PVC will usually talk about its 'fire performance'. What they generally mean is how it contributes to the risk of fire, i.e. Toxic products, heat output, ignitability etc. If this is the only criteria that you want to compare, then standard glass also offers an increased level of "fire performance". Something that melts between 100C and 260C is not something that is likely to ever pass the applicable 476 tests for fire doors/construction without some major modifications.

Most of the literature that can be found does give out some truthful technical info, but they do a good job of hiding some important stuff too. The PVC brigade seem to carefully avoid talking about the rate of CO production of PVC, usually talking about the production of HCl instead, sometimes to the extent of claiming that HCl production is actually a benefit due to its irritant properties and its ease of detection. PVC has a much higher rate of CO production than wood. 0.06g/g as opposed to 0.002g/g.

Offline The Colonel

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Re: Acceptance of PVC for fire resistance?
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2011, 03:16:57 PM »
Midland.

Have come across at least one housing association that is fitting composite doors to flats onto common areas, they have indicated that they comply with BS 476 but have not had sight of the documentation or manufacturer. Will try and get some more info which may take a little time as away on holiday at the moment in sunny (it's raining) St. Ives