Sheltered Flats

[colin todd]

Kurnal, you should really be careful about recommending fire alarm signals are transmitted via a social alarm system. It is not designed for life critical applications like a fire alarm system or associated transmission equipment.

[kurnal]

Colin there are weaknesses and strengths. One thing is for sure. European working time directives together with the English interpretation of how they should be implemented have ensured the demise of the live in wardens. Even in the good old days though they had to have leave and go shopping sometimes leaving the the sheltered housing scheme unprotected. Dont forget when many of these places were built if an alarm was fitted at all it was only a mains 240 volt manual system installed and one live in warden on call 24/7 often with a valve based TR intercom system and no smoke alarms.....  Over the years the installation of alarm and detection systems has increased the safety of residents greatly but also increased the number of unwanted alarm signals and the wardens have all been given their P45s. If you are lucky now you may find a scheme manager visiting once or twice a week for a few hours.

I am all in favour of a redcare type link between a communal areas alarm system and the call centre and recommend this be installed (but often it is not). The use of a social intercom to verify a call does have potential pitfalls but it does allow a level of support and verification which bring huge benefits to all, on a par with NHS direct- except the connection is automatic.

Its swings and roundabouts - the system is far less resilient than we would like it to be but it is  bringing advantage safety and security to thousands of vulnerable people today and every day. If we purse our lips and suck our teeth we will deny these benefits and have nothing to put in its place.    By all means lets develop a system that does achieve a life safety standard but it has to be available and affordable now.  Plus it needs to be  connected to the LD systems in each flat as well as the communal areas alarm, on an individually addressable basis.

So your  mum burns the toast. The LD detector in the flat operates and the call centre calls your mum and speaks to her on the intercom. If they get no response they call the fire service and the response team. A level of service and support far above and beyond the scope of BS5839 parts 1 or 6. Plus they are usually tested every day by the call centre speaking to each vulnerable resident.

Unless you know of a better solution that will work, is available now and are prepared to share the details with us?

[SamFIRT]

The LD detector in the flat operates and the call centre speaks to the tenant on the intercom. If they get no response they call the fire service and the response team

Provided they do. Hummmmmmmmm

[kurnal]

Well Sam what else do you suggest? We arent going to get resident wardens back, the best housing associations operate response teams but with a response time of 20 minutes can that be called a life safety response? Crikey the Doctor dialled an emergency ambulance a couple of weeks ago by 999 when my ma in Law had a stroke and it took an hour to arrive on blues and twos. My mate had a heart attack at work- 40 minutes for the ambulance to come. We cant be having response times like that from the emergency services on the one hand and at the same time telling cash strapped social housing providers that they have a duty to employ more staff and give a better response.

hmmm they say things come in threes.

[nearlythere]

Kurnal, you should really be careful about recommending fire alarm signals are transmitted via a social alarm system. It is not designed for life critical applications like a fire alarm system or associated transmission equipment.

Yes Kurnal. You can only have that if you have a three mile cable with a 65db bell on the end of if. Any more can get a tad difficult pull. Emergency radio signals over a longer distance  e.g. the moon and back, are not proven yet for fire warnings.
Now what system would you trust? A commercial social networking system or a British Government special?

[SamFIRT]

Kurnal.

Based on recent experience I would say the minimum social call centres (carelines etc.) should do is to train their operators to recognise an emergency situation rather than a social care situation. If they are monitoring a flat by listening they should be able to recognise the sounds of a single point alarm sounding; or if they are connected to a FAS installed in the premises and it actuates and they are unable to contact the resident by the intercom (radio or whatever) then they should call 999 and say so. If they are unable to raise the resident then they should act accordingly. To always mobilise a social response team (local warden, buddy, key-holder etc.) before calling an emergency service may not be the best way for a resident in distress.

IMHO 

[colin todd]

Kurnal, I suggest you talk to the coroner who has expressed concerns about the way social alarm systems monitor fire signals.  After which, I suggest you think twice before recommending that the communal system be transmitted by this means. Alternatively, you could write in the fra action plan that it should be ensured that no resident uses their social alarm system less than 15 minutes before the outbreak of a fire.  That might prevent unacceptable transmission delays.

Sheltered housing is a mess that has been exacerbated by the publication of the highly flawed BS 9991.  Since the committee responsible for that standard did not competently deal with the issue, it will need to be dealt with in other new guidance that does the job for them.

[William 29]

Sheltered housing is a mess that has been exacerbated by the publication of the highly flawed BS 9991.  Since the committee responsible for that standard did not competently deal with the issue, it will need to be dealt with in other new guidance that does the job for them.

Colin, are you aware of some new guidance coming out or are you writing some for us??

[colin todd]

Willie, I have put proposals that new guidance should be produced in 3 different fora. In two cases, my proposals were accepted and I will be working in each case to help draft the guidance.  The third proposal is under consideration and I will be attending a meeting to discuss in March or April.

[William 29]

Thanks Colin, if the guidance is along the lines the purpose built flats guide then I think that will be a good leap forward.  In my view there are many such areas that need clarification from when the HM Gov guides were first produced.  One very grey area that no one seems to be able to agree on is supported or assisted living premises.  Those "domestic" type premises that are not single private dwellings but in reality operate in much the same as a domestic household.

[Midland Retty]

I can't argue with Kurnal's logic. Whilst communal communication systems should not be relied upon, it doesn't mean to say we should discount them completely. They do represent an extra tier of protection in my opinion.

As the only means of rasing an alarm I would of course agree that communal communication is totally inappropriate. But where it is installed, comms can compliment the protection offered by the Part 1 (communal) / Part 6 (individual flat) fire alarm systems.

If a resident has kealed over in their flat, left cooking on, and a blaze occurs,  it would only be if and when the communal system activated that other residents in the scheme would be alerted to the fire, and call the emergency services. By that time the resident may have persished.

With a part 6 alarm linked to the communal comms system someone at a control centre will be alerted to the fact an alarm has been activated. The call centre staff may attempt voice communication with the resident. If there is no response they would call the fire service. Furthermore it might be argued that this process could occur faster than the time it takes for the communal alarm system to activate, and other residents to call 999. So when used in that way I don't see why there is a problem with comm/comm systems.

I appreciate that it all depends on the quality of the call monitoring centre staff, and you can't solely rely on comm systems only to raise the alarm for obvious reasons.

[SamFIRT]

With a part 6 alarm linked to the communal comms system someone at a control centre will be alerted to the fact an alarm has been activated. The call centre staff may attempt voice communication with the resident. If there is no response they would call the fire service.

Spookily close. But they did, she didn't and they then didn't and she did'nt make it.

[colin todd]

Either you can rely on something or you cant. If it is perceived to be life critical you should be able to rely on it.  As already indicated, Retters, one needs to determine the objectives. You, like many other people, have lost sight of the ball as to why signals were to be relayed to an arc from the flats in the first place. It was NOT to save the individual in the flat of fire origin.  Sometimes you need to go back to basiscs. It worked for John Major (not).

[kurnal]

Yes Sam and tragic news will result. What we never hear about is the very many times when they did , she didn't so they did and probably saved a life.

I can give two examples of this on one scheme in the last 12 months.

[SamFIRT]

Fair comment Kurnal