NEW GUIDE FOR PUBLIC SHOWING SOURCES OF COMPETENT FIRE RISK ASSESSORS

[Kelsall]

Willie, as a stakeholder in the FRACC guide he has implicitly already told us, surely.  The answer (for the moment) is BAFE SP 205, the scheme of choice, as selected by Willie's Fire Risk Assessors extraordinaire.

So what will make the less than extraordinary fire risk assessors sign up? What will prevent the cowboy from trading? What will make the duty holder ask for it?

[Kelsall]

Neither do I William. There should not be a monopoly of company schemes - there is a choice in the extinguishing sector and in the alarms sector and it is right that there should be a choice of schemes in the fire risk assessment sector. A monopoly is always a bad thing even one underwritten by UKAS. We need choice and competition - not only in respect of CBs but also in respect of schemes. Unforunately compared to other sectors the market place is too small for more players at present - it shouldn't be but it is still early days. The whole thing needs to be driven and publicised harder from the top and from the bottom- Government, enforcers and by the companies themselves.

Fully agree Kurnal especially with the last bit.

[colin todd]

Wille  no nothing to do with competence. The stakeholders of the fire safety profession have signed up to recommending COMPANY certification by a UKAS accredited CB. For the moment that means BAFE SP 205, as it is the only game in town and a very reputable game it is, as the scheme itself is STAKEHOLDER led.

  Kel says : So what will make the less than extraordinary fire risk assessors sign up? What will prevent the cowboy from trading? What will make the duty holder ask for it?  I dont know Kel cos I dont sell certification schemes for a living. Dont you know?

[Kelsall]

Wille  no nothing to do with competence. The stakeholders of the fire safety profession have signed up to recommending COMPANY certification by a UKAS accredited CB. For the moment that means BAFE SP 205, as it is the only game in town and a very reputable game it is, as the scheme itself is STAKEHOLDER led.

  Kel says : So what will make the less than extraordinary fire risk assessors sign up? What will prevent the cowboy from trading? What will make the duty holder ask for it?  I dont know Kel cos I dont sell certification schemes for a living. Dont you know?

Why don't you ask your chums who sell 205 for their thoughts on this.

[nearlythere]

So will these members of the dream team be subject to regular monitoring to ensure they stay in line and keep their offices clean?
Is there a means where offenders can be "struck off".
I remember the time when Prince Charles visited Morton and asked what the failure rate was. Embarassment all around apparently.

[The Colonel]

As a risk assessor who originally came from a fire service fire safety back ground and a sole trader I have been interested to show that my assessments etc are up to the job and not just a tick sheet, I also like to give a good service and an old fashioned value for money. I am currently on two registers including the IFE but had been thinking of going for a UKAS scheme and have looked at a couple, SP205 looked ok and was suitable for sole traders.

So last week I spoke to one of the CBs and asked a few questions including how much? I was given a few figures and on monday received an email with costs which include Administration Fee £350 + vat, Auditor Days £460 + Vat, Annual Surveillance Fee £750 + vat and BAFE fee £230+vat making a total assuming accepted in the 1st year of £2148 with an annual fee thereafter in the 2nd year of £1176. I received a follow up call on Wednesday to see what I thought about my quote and gave a full and frank view of what can only be described as an horrendous cost for a sole trader, a review of the cost was promised but so far no update, I wonder why?

Larger companies can possibly afford the cost and I sometimes get the impression that some well known people want to push us small operators out so that they have it all to themselves. There are bad sole traders as in all professions but do not tar all of use with the same brush, a lot of us try very hard to do a good job and continue to learn and undertake CPD to keep up to date with new guides, equipment etc. By the way we are not  the cheap back of a fag packet assessors, many of use have invested quite a lot in money and time. I have seen a number of assessments that would not be worth the paper they are written on from some very well known companies, one of which was taken on by an enforcing officer after a terrible risk assessment, with the threat of court action against them they withdrew from fire risk assessments completely nationwide.

I encourage my clients to use firms or individuals that area accredited and where possible to get recommendations from their customers, I have no problem with providing my information, accreditation's, qualifications and samples of my work. Client recommendations also works, one client unknown to me recommended me and now looks like 70 assessments coming my way.

In short, I have no problem with accreditation and review but will look elsewhere now I know how much SP2005 would cost me and guess who would pay if I did, my clients. There are many sole traders who are not in it for pocket money and take a pride in their work.

[lancsfirepro]

We signed up early and got an introductory offer from our CB to allow for any less than smooth experiences whilst they were going through the UKAS approval stage. However, as far as we were concerned, the experience was very smooth and straight-forward. We used NSI and would have no hesitation in recommending them at all. Don't think we'd have bothered at the prices you're quoting though. 

[colin todd]

Kelsall, I dont have chums who sell SP 205, cos I really dont like aggressive salesman; my chums are all technical people, who work for a non profit making organization that is there to improve standards within the profession not sell schemes to help the shareholders.

So now we have that straight cant you tell us all the answer to the conundrum.

Sergeant Major:  BAFE SP 205, far from being written to push out sole traders, was carefully crafted to make sure they could be included. And I bet in your FRAs you recommend that the electrical installation is inspected and tested by an NICEIC contractor or a member of the ECA or SELECT. When you recommend fire alarm contractors you probably recommend an LPS 1014 firm or a BAFE SP 203 firm. When the client asks who will maintain the fire extinguishers you probably yawn and say oh go look at the SP 101 list.  Many NICEIC firms and SP 203 firms and SP 101 firms probably make no more money than pensioned ex firemen, not least cos they dont have the pension. So everyone else is expected to have TPC or be  recommended by fire risk assessors but the fire risk assessors can just waive their fire service demob papers and that should be good enough for anyone?  I think not.

[kurnal]

In response to Colonel I would make the following observations.

The scheme is still in its infancy, several of the CBs are completely new to the fire risk assessment sector and they are having to feel their way into the market. Pricing, as I am sure you found when you established your business, is very much a touchy feely thing as to finding the middle ground to make sure there is profit for yourself but also making your services attractive to the punters. Theres no point aiming for a fantastic profit margin if you have no customers. Thats where the CBs are at the moment, whilst they are essentially non profit making organisations they have to cover costs and the trouble is they have this other non profit making financial burden sitting on their backs called UKAS and their UKAS accreditation does not come cheap. UKAS has been established a long time, like any quasi government style organisation their staff expect posh offices, good salaries, long holidays and nice hotels when they are reviewing the CBs. So the CBs have to carry this cost and ultimately pass it on to us, before they make a penny in income.

I wager none of the CBs have made a penny from SP205 yet and neither has the other organisation from its scheme. They have to sell the schemes to us as their customers and the Government and enforcement authorites are not making it any easier for them because they are not adequately pushing the scheme to our customers to create a viable market.( apart from perhaps in NI) .

Most of those already certified have had the benefit of an introductory offer in which they only covered the UKAS overheads, I was offered one such deal but the offer was later pulled as the CB involved only wanted to use one man bands to obtain their UKAS accreditation, we with 3 associates were considered too big to be viable for the introductory offer.

Negotiate and push hard for the best price you can and as soon as the workload slows down a bit like you I will be seeking either SP205 or FRACS certification. But we just have too many customers to service at the moment to have time to go through the process. And not one customer has asked for any form of TPC yet.

I fear that unless more is done to publicise and push TPC to the Responsible Persons, the number of CBs will be too high for the market and some of the CBs will be forced to withdraw.

[colin todd]

Kurnal. Does your backside never tire of doing all the talking.  UKAS accreditation of a scheme is not expensive.  Most technical staff work from home, so your crap about plush offices is just that. And how did you come by the salary and holiday entitelment. Hotels used have a price ;imit, and use of Premier Inns is commonplace.

About the only thing you got right is that the existing CBs are not for profit but that they havenot made any money yet.

[colin todd]

NOW 9 FIRMS CERTIFICATED UNDER SP 205, WHICH IS 900% OF THE NUMBER CERTIFICATED UNDER THE NON-ACCREDITED WARRINGTON SCHEME.

CANT WAIT FOR IT TO REACH DOUBLE NUMBERS-HURRY UP BIG AL AND GET IN THERE.

[nearlythere]

Kurnal. Does your backside never tire of doing all the talking.  UKAS accreditation of a scheme is not expensive.  Most technical staff work from home, so your crap about plush offices is just that. And how did you come by the salary and holiday entitelment. Hotels used have a price ;imit, and use of Premier Inns is commonplace.

About the only thing you got right is that the existing CBs are not for profit but that they havenot made any money yet.

I think your tone and comments are completely out of order Mr Todd. I think a yellow card is in order.

[colin todd]

I thought Kurnal's comments and tone were completely out of order, so I believe he needed to be advised of that.

[nearlythere]

Not so Mr Todd. You made it personal. There is no place in the forum for such comments. I hope and expect the forum members agree.

[kurnal]

Colin I am repeating what I was told by one of the CBs when I, like the Colonel,  queried the pricing structure. I am sorry you dont like the message. Thats the  essence of what I was told.  1- I said its still in its infancy- it is.
2- I said the pricing structure is still immature and fluid- it is as you will see if you ask for a price.
3- I said a major factor in the pricing structure is the overhead of UKAS accreditation- which is what I was told by one of the CBs. OK posh offices and hotel bills may be gilding the lily but look at the UKAS website and there are clearly major overheads in running this organisation. Nothing wrong with that but the end user is inevitably paying for it. UKAS has a turnover of £20  million and made a profit of nearly £1 million which they re-invest in new schemes. CF BSI who made a profit of £1.5 million.
4- I suggested none of the CBs had yet made any money. This is not in dispute.
5- I said that most of those companies that had gone through BAFE SP205 so far were on the basis of the introductory offer to assist the CB to gain their UKAS accreditation. This is beyond dispute, I know many of them.
6- I repeated part of my own experience in seeking to partake in the introductory offer and have previously told you - and only you- about this.
7- I suggested that Colonel should negotiate to get the best price. I know from personal experience that prices are negotiable.
8- I said I fear for the future for some of the CBs if more companies do not register and that the Government and enforcers are not doing enough to promote the schemes. I think most people in the industry agree with this latter point.

So which comments and tone were out of order? You know full well I support the scheme and will be signing up as soon as time allows because I believe in it and that it will help to raise standards.

Is it an example of the thought police and not being allowed to question the party line?  I have seen this attitude so many times in my fire service career.