BA Seacrh procedure with Hose reel

[fireftrm]

I believe that the Ffs prefer Billy's Simline, but like you Paul, note that this is in preference to the existing line. A rather loaded question.

* out of 10 cats used to prefer Whiskas - even allowing for the change to that saying to '8 out of 10 cat owners (who express a preference) choose Whiskas' still really only means little.

[Billy]

Fireftrm

How is -"do you prefer the old guideline or new Guideline" a loaded question?

What else should I have asked them when evaluating a new piece of equipment against what is already in use?

As for the BA teams going in with a HR to an incident to relieve another BA team and swapping over HR's so they can find their way back out - I ask again, is that what you are suggesting?

[fireftrm]

It is only a loaded question when it is to be used to attempt to demonstrate that the new guideline is 'preferred' as in
"All Scottish Brigades have tried them and 95% out of over 200 firefighters prefer them-Their words not mine." - now preferred to ..... the old line? If so then yippee do-da. No surpise there. If the question was do you prefer this guideline to the myriad of other tools and procedures we can utilise then what would the answer have been.....99% of Ffs say that they would prefer never to see a GL?

Anyway what about the 'new procedires' you keep going on about? A significant thing that you keep avoiding?

[Billy]

Fireftrm

If the "myriad of other tools and procedures we can utilise" you refer to  is PPV and TIC's which are not on all front line appliances - how can we utilise them if we don't have them?

It was you who said a Guideline is a safe system of work and under the hierarchy of control measures- if you don't  have PPV or a TIC,(which a lot of appliances don't),a guideline is an acceptable control measure, or do you disagree with H&S, Rep bodies and your own FRS?

I think the new procedures you keep going on about may be referring to my suggestion to try and achieve the following:.

1. do as Lee 999 suggests and carry out thorough Risk assessments on all  major risks within the Station area.

2. If we think we may have to use guidelines, we see if we can use them safely within the premises.

3.If we can't use them safely, due to lack of securing points, we inform the owners of the outcome of the RA.

4. If they don't fit them, we won't use them- it's that simple!

5. If they do fit them, we know we can use them safely and quickly.

 Please, please tell me what is wrong with a piece of equipment that you have physical contact with and will lead you back to your place of entry in zero visibility!!!!!!!!

Now please tell me if you agree with the suggested procedure of taking a HR in to relieve a BA team, swapping HR's with them, and then they will come out with your HR?

[fireftrm]

Brilliant!

I can see a couple of minor changes required to the process and to your new procedures:

1. No change
2. Examine control measures, starting with ventilation (either ours or fitted) and then include on fire plan. Inform the premises occupiers that we may not be prepared to commit internal firefighting resources where the RA deems the building to remain high risk after control measures.
3. If we consider that the ONLY possible control measure is GLs inform the premises occupiers that the building is too dangerous to commit Ffs
4 and 5 would not crop up anyway

What is wrong with equipment for use in zero visibility? here goes:

a. what are we doing in zero visibility? - first improve visibility
b. why would we want to use a piece of string that requires ages to run out when the fire would have either become too big, or any occupants still alive would have died
c. it is damned dangerous, difficult and there are many, better, safer and quicker alternatives

As to the last point - in consideration it is a considerably safer and quicker method of tracing the route to/from a fire than a GL - so in essence yes I do.

[Andy Cole]

Billy please tell me why you think my HR theory is faulted? this is a genuine question.
I have always been taught never to enter a building or move around inside it without having a firefighting medium with you!, I cannot see how you can do this and not have a guide to your exit in your hand!. as far as I can see this guide also happens to double up as a handy tool for doing any gas cooling or door entry procedures which may have become nessercary because of an unexpected development in the fire!
I realise by now that you are a firm supporter of GL's and to be quite honest I am aware that as a proby I am the last person on this forum who is going to convince you to think otherwise, it is therefore not my intention to attempt to do so but I would be interested in your thoughts on this matter!
I look forward to hearing from you
Andy

[Billy]

Andy

My thoughts on the practice of taking a HR in to relieve a crew, swapping HR's and them bring your HR back out is totally unnecessary, and I kept on about it because I thought someone else would tell you so!

If you are going in to relieve a crew on a branch, the last thing you should come across is a fire before you get to the branch!

The first rule of firefighting is never pass fire, so there shouldn't be any fire before you reach the BA team.
If there is, you can retreat, but the biggest danger to anyone in there is to the initial team!

So all you are taking the HR in for is to pass it to the other BA team so instead of that, why not just follow their HR till you get to them.
Easier for you to get in- Easier for them to get out!
It also cuts down the number of HRs being dragged into the building and the amount of pump operators required.

Imagine a large fire with say 4 HRs, or even worse 4 Jets in use- using your method you would require 8 HRs or jets and would require more physical effort from BA teams.

I thought someone else may point this out to you, and gave them ample opportunity to do so but it never happened!

I have been to numerous large fires and if BA teams needed relieved, the new BA team followed the HR or hose and relieved them!

This means that either I have been doing it wrong for years or other people haven't been to any large fires!

I will leave it for others to decide!!!!!!

[Andy Cole]

I appreciate what you are saying, I have to say that I was always told to have a Firefighting medium with me at all times which is where my confusion stems from, I am however not going to argue that point because as we both know you are the one with the superior knowledge and experience!

You do say in your answer to me 'why not just follow their HR till you get to them. Easier for you to get in - Easier for them to get out!' (please see Billy's post to see this quote in context) in saying this are you not in essence supporting my main point which is that GL are unnessercary as HR's can be used as a guide in and out instead?

[Billy]

Andy

I never mentioned Guidelines in relation to the HR scenario!

Other people including Fireftrm say that Guidelines are a safe system of work, but don't think for one minute that you can use HRs instead.

If your point is that Guidelines are unnecessary and you can use HR's instead- how do you know if you have fully searched an area or room if you are dragging a HR behind you?

[docfin]

Dear God Almighty!!!
Clip onto the hose, sounds like a training centre wallah invention.
The way to guarantee that you find your way back to the point of entry is to ensure that you pay full attention to the route you took on the way in.
Does everyone remember Gillander street and what happens when loads of hose takes the same route?(not withstanding the other issues which contributed to that tragedy)
The problem that we are finding in my brigade is that not nearly enough time is spent training with BA anymore or anything else for that matter, and little things like this can creep in without being addressed.
The demise of the BAI in some brigades will be regreted later and
I can quote one senior officer in my Brigade who said "Why do we need to train special instructors in BA, its just another piece of kit".

[fireftrm]

Dearer God almighty..............hoiw many peopl ehave heard the 'follow the reel as a guide line back to the entry' and MADE this inot 'clip onto the reel'? Chinese whispers or what. The real reel point would have been to follow the reel as a guide line to the entry point. Surely, and I can see no other true meaning of the term, a guide line meant a line (direction) guiding you on your way not as a 'Guidleline' which is a specific name for a piece of equipment. If the misunderstanding of what the individual was told is taken into account then the whole clipping to the reel is easily dismissed as any sort of suggestion by the trainers or otherwise.

Read the posts again and see my point?

[fireftrm]

PS docfin, remember that the hose was a side issue to the real reason for Gillender St disaster, that being the use of a Guidleine, instead of hose. That there was way too much, uncharged, hose lying around only made matters worse. Had they taken a charged line, no Guideline, and followed that then perhaps it would have all been different?

[docfin]

Fair point about Gillender St. I think my rant was more to do with the demise of the BAI than anything else.
Does anyone else feel this, coupled with the emphasis being placed on training by video or electronic means is a mistake.
In my brigade (Kent) I have heard even the most bone idle of old sweats complaining that we dont do nearly enough drills anymore.

[Billy]

PS docfin, remember that the hose was a side issue to the real reason for Gillender St disaster, that being the use of a Guidleine, instead of hose. That there was way too much, uncharged, hose lying around only made matters worse. Had they taken a charged line, no Guideline, and followed that then perhaps it would have all been different?

Fireftrm

Your argument is so flawed it is laughable- Don't use Guidelines but use hose instead which has no markings of direction of travel!

You say that the Gillender St "disaster" was that they used a Guideline but I have stated on previous posts that you cannot follow hose from a building if there is large amounts in use?

You even say that  the disaster was due to using a guideline instead of hose!!!

Docfin

Totally agree with your point on the demise of the BAI- all FRS need to use the knowledge and expertise of personnel such as the BAI to pass on their experiences to crews and ensure uniformity of training!

[fireftrm]

Correect me, then, if I am wrong......the problem which resulted in the deaths of the two firefighters was not the use of the guideline?

A lot of hose was there and that was the cause?

Where in saying that using a guideline instead of hose caused the disaster is there a problem? If they had taken a length, charged, as the only team in that area they would have been able to return all the way to their entry point, it is not possible for others to pop along and make divisions on your length without your knowledge and follwoing a 70mm hose line back would have been somewhat easier.

I am interested to hear a good description, from the users here,  of the Gillender St premises and the area that the team were in, plus the purpose for which a guideline was in use and what hose was in use and whether charged/uncharged?