Self Storage Buildings

[fireftrm]

My head is nowhere near rthe sand. I am not ignoringt he problems that guidelines present, I am doing something about it by advocating their disposal!

Gillender St was a disaster because of confusion over the tabs, yes. But look at the real problem - the use of the guideline at all. They were unecessary and should not have been adopted, the tab issue would not have surfaced had they not been there.

If i think guidelines kill people- how muh fire crews are killed at fires wearing BA? - Well I can't think of any where the BA itself was the cause. I can where the guideline was.

If the use of a guideline could be demonstrated as of benefit to the ffs then I would consider it, I cannot imagine such a situation. Simple as that! I can actually imagine the landing of an alien spacecraft, or an American Prsident with knowledge of the world,  but try as I might I cannot imagine a situation where a guideline would afford more Ff safety than any other option.

I am sorry that you are so hell-bent on maintaining the guideline and again sorry that I have to say this - but it is you who have your head firmly stuck in the Silicon Dioxide.

[Lee999]

Billy

Could effective sectorisation have made a difference at this job?

[Billy]

Fireftrm

If you cannot imagine a guideline Which can help fire crews retrace their steps back to their point of entry being of benefit  then I despair, as that is what it will do when used properly!

Maybe my viewpoint is different as i don't have to rely on imagination, but experience, and the experiences of others who have tried and endorsed the new system!

[Billy]

Lee 999

Yes internal sectorisation/ compartmentation would have made a great difference at this job, but none of this was in place so we had to do what we always do, and deal with it regardless!

[Lee999]

There are alternative ways to search buildings without using a guideline, fact.

Mr Houston, i would like to take this oportunity to distance myself, my watch, my station and the Brigade from the water tower/looking like we are doing something comment.

I cant imagine it happening in reality. It was probably just a figure of speech.

[Billy]

Lee 999

I totally agree with both your comments!

[fireftrm]

At last Billy agrres that GLS are not needed and we can do away with them.

Lee - you are right it was a figure of speech. I am not suggesting that the aerial is purely for the  sake of being seen to be doing something, but I do know how little real use they are at the early stages, they are of increasing use as the fire loses strength.

What they do particularly well is to form a safe method of delivering large quantities of water, with the Ffs being able to operate at a safe distance. They also provide operational commanders with a good view of the fire (remote cameras) and a safe platform for secondary access/egress where applicable.

That they may only be dealing a slight blow to the fire is likley, so to an extent I feel we utilise them in the early stages as a publicity machine with increasing operational benefit as the incident progresses, though maybe we have never really thought about it that way?

[Billy]

Fireftrm

how does admitting there are alternative ways of searching buildings equate to you thinking that i agree we don't need them and can do away with them?

We will no doubt  agree to disagree on this one,  but the fact remains that we still have them on all UK front line appliances, we still all know the current problems with them, and if your only solution is not to use them ever- you are leaving your FRS open to a huge claim should the right ( or should I say wrong) situation arise.

Surely you agree with this?

[fireftrm]

You said you agree with there being ways of searching without a guideline, I am convinced (from all the other posts) that Lee meant - to avoid using one.

As I have already said, and yes we will agree to disagree, that I can think of no situations where a guideline would be the best way to ensure firefighter safety. As Ff safety and the DRA by the IC would be the crux of any claim against my employer I am happy that my solution of avoiding their use like the plague would prevent such a claim being successful. I am also happy that avoiding their use will restrict the likelyhood of any claim arising in the first place. Indeed it is for firefighter safety and the speed of rescuing any saveable casualties that I am so wholeheartedly against guidelines.

[ian gough]

Fireftrm....well it's nice to know that all is not lost with you. But I think you misunderstand a lot of what I've said.

[fireftrm]

Ian - probably. Perhaps you could explain what you are getting at then?

[ian gough]

Not sure where to start.

Where's Colin when you need him?!

Firstly: see my latest comment in support of Billy re searching off hose reels.

Secondly: just stop and think for a moment regarding the original posting by Wee Brian. And the only example of a real fire (to date) described in this forum. The fire did not burn in the way you suggest in your earlier post and question to me. In other words it didn't burn quickly.

In this case:
a) TL/HP would have done nothing (and simply angered Chris and his colleagues - quite rightly) because the fire had not burned through the 4 floors.
b) I got the feeling that it was extremely difficult to ventilate - which in general, they are.
c) Billy admits to getting lost in a large building during firefighting operations!

If you want more information i'll be happy to assist.

[Andy Cole]

How can you get lost ina building whilst Firefighting? If you are firefighting then surely you have a HR with you this MUST ultimatley lead back to a Fire engine I just can't think why you would need a guideline to follow when you can follow your HR!

[Chris Houston]

Here are some scenarios - please take a moment to say what you would expect the FRS to do and then what they should:

1. Flooding, many houses affected
2. Single storey sandwich panel clad warehouse, no one in, on fire
3. Car off road submersed in flowing water
4. Bale stack alight at farm, in stand alone barn
5. Outdoor bale stack alight 10 m from nearest building

I am stunned that you, as (I understand) an insurance expert....

Firey, I would consider myself unqualified to comment on any of the above.  I am very much learning from what is being said here.

I would not claim to be an expert in anything, more of a generalist in surveying certain types of property (none of the above though.)

[Billy]

Andy Cole

Your statement about how you can get lost in a building whilst firefighting sounds as if you haven't  read all the posts so I will give you the basic details.

We got lost as we were relieved by a crew when we were on the branch and tried to retrace a length of 45 mm hose which was under about 6 inches of water.
As there were around 4 or 5 hoses to choose from- we ended up back at another branch instead of out to open air.
We then went back to the point where the confusion was and found our way out eventually!

Hopefully you now understand how we got lost- even if it was only for a couple of minutes.

Do you have any other suggestions how we could have done it differently?

As to not thinking of a reason why we need guidelines- firstly think what our procedures say we should consider them for, and come up with solutions to not using them that are cost effective for all concerned!